X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:17:03 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm45.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.87.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6416474 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:45:57 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=67.195.87.147; envelope-from=mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com Received: from [98.137.12.55] by nm45.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2013 18:45:21 -0000 Received: from [98.137.12.248] by tm15.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2013 18:45:21 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1056.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2013 18:45:21 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 137955.78822.bm@omp1056.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 77609 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Aug 2013 18:45:21 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=B+o1KO5BvjtFWaxRKnt89U2XfGumsBKnPL2x1NQQz/rdorE+S5gLg9WHod+JGeZSHc+JvIYiwRBCa4PQ8dKeFfLQI+D9NExoRP8a1p5bF5XPMup45HAsuD0CAVqOhXgNq3hcjjtTm6zxD/Fv7hNgQSub2IZDFLakKmRCbs/W0e8=; X-YMail-OSG: 6Z.XVjgVM1k4joVAMcgf0WmWfsipPowmhjSV5CwNNJSHwx4 36wETgNrZJ77gwj0RqHztTXkvpGIyMCXL3ySAjrzfAlYISmX8JE2kjjhv0Ti uHYDA1GHIghQ50xklIV8U3TEdHQ5tHrYB4p4XrjcPa1Yyb3nsiUMwrBl7Z0q f8coMpbVxIv13XwvmOPUvrke1pKQL7Klx8ZwC_qrpYsPZjIVWIYsCzF_AbOO 1jkjC.y7LAtNslVUBP31C7wyidnDY349FSJk3VEEp5wgeJAx8fMIaEZ.iBSe SnneZw2N1dczqS.jU11jBp1Yo7GOLuSLPEErR8bHa7Cl6umuXFCD0DqYhXWw GIyxeNemmTUNLXhFr7tygBlXsIL.Oa1T7gQd6NWXk.MV6Y6VD2HQM05bbCuF bE0IrYj_Ns6P2pL4_RckZAepb4Of9GlVs298Z_aIZ5svdrQBW5PycSpNpfO5 ODDGlZZXTdJ6x8.e.qbrvzsesHlKTvlMpF0sZvae0kcRLWBwUgho0YLulIva kSU9B9F6HRKYgOKEdSXbGU5LfOjsSKk.q_OANKaS2bCWlJtRxiWWB7GT2uSr rVKo.lakU927t_92KdNyEtYjoDxSDvtgO7Jr2flcrNrUl Received: from [63.110.89.212] by web164802.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:45:20 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,R29vZCBxdWVzdGlvbi4KwqAKSXQgcmVhbGx5IGRlcGVuZHMgb24gaG93IGxvdy4gSWYgaXQgaXMgbG93IHRvIHRoZSBwb2ludCB3aGVyZSBJIGFtIG5vdCBnb2luZyB0byBtYWtlIGl0IHRvIGxvdyBrZXksIEkgYW0gZ29pbmcgdG8gbGFuZCBzdHJhaWdodCBhaGVhZCBzb21ld2hlcmUuIElmIGl0IGlzIG15IGhvbWUgZmllbGQgSSBhbSBwdXR0aW5nIG9uIHRoZSB0cmFpbiB0cmFja3Mgd2hpY2ggcnVuIHBhcmFsbGVsIHRvIHRoZSBydW53YXkgYW5kIHJpZ2h0IG5leHQgdG8gaXQsIEtXSFAgd2hpbGXCoHByYXkBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.154.571 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1376419520.76753.YahooMailNeo@web164802.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt losangeles Reply-To: Matt losangeles Subject: Re: [LML] Flaps on take-off? X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="430928906-191368715-1376419520=:76753" --430928906-191368715-1376419520=:76753 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good question.=0A=A0=0AIt really depends on how low. If it is low to the po= int where I am not going to make it to low key, I am going to land straight= ahead somewhere. If it is my home field I am putting on the train tracks w= hich run parallel to the runway and right next to it, KWHP while=A0praying = for no train. It is very much a part of my process to work the trim and fla= ps at the same time after I put the gear down. I image in this situation I = will not be putting the gear down, I have always planned on belly up for th= is scenario. The sudden loss of power is going to demand a pitch change so = I am sure I will be doing that instinctively. Will I be running the flaps d= own at the same time, who knows. Perhaps if I remember to. It is likely bec= ause that is what I always do when I get ready to land, run the flaps and t= rim at the same time while looking out the left window at my flap position.= I also make trim changes in flight all the time like when I level off. I a= m not running the flaps then so who knows. I might forget and end up landing fast. With the = heart pumping and the stress it is hard to say for certain what would happe= n. I do know this, there is a certain small chance that I wouldn't have tim= e to or would forget to put the flaps down for landing in this situation. I= also know that there is a certain small chance that I take off and departu= re gives me some instruction that requires me to look at my map, I am still= choosing the I don't want departure to distract me and cause me to fixate a= t the wrong time causing my plane to be pointed nose up at 1000 agl because= they distracted me while I was cleaning my flaps up. Ohh, I have been dist= racted this way in the past while taking off. It is hard to always ignore t= he controllers. They tend to switch things on you right when you check in w= ith them sometimes requiring you to write things down.=0A=A0=0AMatt=A0 =0A= =0A________________________________=0A From: Bill Hannahan =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:32 A= M=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?=0A =0A=0A=0AMatt, I agree with the o= thers that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must ask a question.=0A=0AWha= t do you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the engine= quits?=0A=0A1.=A0 Land at high speed flaps up.=0A=0A2.=A0=A0 Lower the fla= ps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while making all the other d= ecisions and actions required in parallel.=0A=0A3.=A0=A0 ?=0A=0A=0ARegards,= =0ABill Hannahan =0A=0Awfhannahan@yahoo.com=0A =0A----- Forwarded Message = -----=0AFrom: "marv@lancair.net" =0ATo: lml =0ASent= : Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02 PM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off?= =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0APosted for Matt losangeles=0A:=0A=0A> I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I= lift off so I =0A>don't have to mess=0Awith trim when I am low to the grou= nd. I could see a =0A>scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately ha= nded off to departure =0A>control while I am putting the flaps up. They tel= l me to do something the =0A>requires me to look at my map and the next thi= ng you know,=0Awhile distracted, =0A>=A0I am at an unusual attitude really = close to the ground. When I am down low =0A>like that I want to make sure i= f I=0Aam distracted it isn't a problem, the =0A>plane just keeps on climbin= g along at Vy or so.=0A> =A0=0A> I also would guess if you use=0Aflaps on t= ake off, this adds drag=A0and slows =0A>your rate of climb (I have not test= ed this).=A0I am able to be at Vy a couple =0A>seconds after take off and I= am going to get to a safer altitude before the =0A>guy using flaps (again,= this is my guess since I have not=0Atested the two =0A>scenarios).=0A> =A0= =0A> Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the =0A= >EAA,=A0"There=0Ais=A0=A0no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimen= tal =0A>aircraft, nor is there a=A0=A0TC".=A0 =0A> =A0=0A>=0AOhh, what abou= t those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded thier =0A>flaps in= place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the=0Adrag of the =0A>hi= ndges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were meant = =0A>to be flown. You could argue they are reno=0Aracers I suppose. It is al= so =0A>likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the yea= r to fly =0A>all over the place and those=0Aplanes don't seem to be crashin= g on takeoff.=0A> =A0=0A> "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add= a margin of safety"=0A>=0A=A0I personally consider myself part of everyone= and I don't agree that flaps =0A>do in fact add a margin of safety on take= off. I use them on=0Alanding so I can =0A>see out the window and out of ha= bit I suppose.=A0If the speed you land at makes =0A>such a difference, then= the best=0Athing to be doing is flying a plane that =0A>lands at a slower = speed.=0A> =A0=0A> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly=0Afollow= ing the POH makes =0A>sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same= argument on a Mooney =0A>board. I used to take off without=0Aflaps when I = had a Mooney and I heard the =0A>same thing there. Follow the POH explicitl= y=A0or you are completely reckless =0A>and should=0Ahave your license taken= away. At least those Mooney guys had a =0A>point. That was a certified air= craft with a POH that said to take off with =0A>flaps.=0A> =A0=0A> Somethin= g else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our =0A>planes, w= hy on earth don't they=0Ahave a back up system to ensure they always =0A>go= down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the plane = =0A>will fly just=0Afine without them.=0A> =A0=0A> Matt=0A> =0A> =0A> _____= ___________________________=0A> From: Art Jensen=0A= =0A> To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM= =0A> Subject: [LML] Re: To=0AMarv=0A>=A0=A0=0A> Maybe Wolfgang was short on= political correctness, but the truth remains =0A>that if you cannot or do = not fly the=0Aplane as it was meant to be flown then =0A>you should not be = flying that plane. =0A> =0A> I believe everyone would agree that flaps do a= dd=0Aa margin of safety and =0A>should be used for take-off and landing as = per your POH and I believe every =0A>instructor giving training in a=0ALanc= air would agree.=A0=A0If an instructor =0A>reading this disagrees, please s= hare why you disagree with me.=0A> =0A> Art=0A> =0A> Sent from Yahoo! Mail = for iPad=A0=A0=0A> =0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From:=A0= =A0steve=0A;=A0=A0To:=A0=A0;=A0=A0Su= bject: =0A> [LML] Re: To=0AMarv=A0=A0Sent:=A0=A0Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28 P= M=A0=A0=A0=A0=0A> I second your post. I am surprised by the comment. =0A> = =0A> steve alderman=A0=A0 N25SA=A0 360 =0A> =0A> . =0A> -----Original Messa= ge----- From: Claudette Colwell=0A =0A>To: lml Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject: =0A>[LML] To=0AM= arv=A0=A0=0A> It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently dir= ected to Matt =0A>appeared on the LML.=A0 This has always=0Abeen a construc= tive exchange of =0A>information and ideas.=A0 That type of personal commen= t is not in keeping with =0A>the spirit of=0Acooperative sharing of informa= tion. =0A> =A0 =0A> Claudette=A0=A0=0A=0A =0A-- For archives and unsub http= ://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --430928906-191368715-1376419520=:76753 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good quest= ion.
 
It really depends= on how low. If it is low to the point where I am not going to make it to l= ow key, I am going to land straight ahead somewhere. If it is my home field= I am putting on the train tracks which run parallel to the runway and righ= t next to it, KWHP while praying for no train. It is very much a part = of my process to work the trim and flaps at the same time after I put the g= ear down. I image in this situation I will not be putting the gear down, I = have always planned on belly up for this scenario. The sudden loss of power= is going to demand a pitch change so I am sure I will be doing that instin= ctively. Will I be running the flaps down at the same time, who knows. Perh= aps if I remember to. It is likely because that is what I always do when I get ready to land, run the flaps and trim at the same time while lo= oking out the left window at my flap position. I also make trim changes in = flight all the time like when I level off. I am not running the flaps then = so who knows. I might forget and end up landing fast. With the heart pumpin= g and the stress it is hard to say for certain what would happen. I do know= this, there is a certain small chance that I wouldn't have time to or woul= d forget to put the flaps down for landing in this situation. I also know t= hat there is a certain small chance that I take off and departure gives me = some instruction that requires me to look at my map, I am stillchoosing the= I don't want departure to distract me and cause me to fixate at the wrong = time causing my plane to be pointed nose up at 1000 agl because they distra= cted me while I was cleaning my flaps up. Ohh, I have been distracted this = way in the past while taking off. It is hard to always ignore the controllers. They tend to switch things on you right when you check in wit= h them sometimes requiring you to write things down.
 
Matt
 
From:<= /b> Bill Hannahan <wfhannahan@yahoo.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:32 AM
Subject: [LML] Flaps on take= -off?

<= div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif= ; font-size: 18pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Matt, = I agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must ask a = question.

=
W= hat do you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the engi= ne quits?

=
1= .  Land at high speed flaps up.

2.   Lower the flaps and deal with the big tri= m and pitch change while making all the other decisions and actions require= d in parallel.

3.   ?
 
Regards,
=
Bill Hannahan

----- Forwarded Message ----- = From: "marv@lancair.net" <marv@lancair.net>
To: lml <lml>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02 PM=
Subject: [LML] Re: Fl= aps on take-off?




Posted for Matt losangel= es=0A<mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com>:

> I feel much safer addi= ng 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off so I
>don't have to= mess=0Awith trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a
>scenar= io where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to departure=0A
= >control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something t= he
>requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know,=0Awhi= le distracted,
> I am at an unusual attitude really close to th= e ground. When I am down low
>like that I want to make sure if I=0Aa= m distracted it isn't a problem, the
>plane just keeps on climbing a= long at Vy or so.
>  
> I also would guess if you use=0Afl= aps on take off, this adds drag and slows
>your rate of climb (= I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a couple=0A
>seco= nds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before the >guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not=0Atested the= two
>scenarios).
>  
> Another thing. It is an exp= erimental aircraft. As it states on the
>EAA, "There=0Ais =  no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimental
>aircraf= t, nor is there a  TC". 
>  
>=0AOhh, what= about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded thier
>= ;flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the=0Adrag of t= he
>hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they= were meant
>to be flown. You could argue they are reno=0Aracers I s= uppose. It is also
>likely they are using those planes the other 51 = weeks out of the year to fly
>all over the place and those=0Aplanes = don't seem to be crashing on takeoff.
>  
> "I believe eve= ryone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety"
>=0A I p= ersonally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that flaps >do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on=0Alanding= so I can
>see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If th= e speed you land at makes
>such a difference, then the best=0Athing = to be doing is flying a plane that
>lands at a slower speed.
>=  
> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly=0Afollowing= the POH makes
>sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT sam= e argument on a Mooney
>board. I used to take off without=0Aflaps wh= en I had a Mooney and I heard the
>same thing there. Follow the POH = explicitly or you are completely reckless
>and should=0Ahave yo= ur license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had a
>point. That= was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off with=0A
>f= laps.
>  
> Something else to consider, if flaps are so cr= itical to flight on our
>planes, why on earth don't they=0Ahave a ba= ck up system to ensure they always
>go down when needed like our lan= ding gear has? My guess is because the plane
>will fly just=0Afine w= ithout them.
>  
> Matt
>
>
> ________= ________________________
> From: Art Jensen=0A<flycassutts@yahoo.c= om>
> To: lml@lancaironline.net
> Sent: Monday, August 12, = 2013 1:46 PM
> Subject: [LML] Re: To=0AMarv
>  
&g= t; Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, but the truth remains=
>that if you cannot or do not fly the=0Aplane as it was meant to be= flown then
>you should not be flying that plane.
>
> = I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add=0Aa margin of safety and <= br>>should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believ= e every
>instructor giving training in a=0ALancair would agree. = ; If an instructor
>reading this disagrees, please share why yo= u disagree with me.
>
> Art
>=0A
> Sent from Yahoo= ! Mail for iPad  
>
>
> _____________________= ___________
> From:  steve=0A<n5276j@aol.com>; &= nbsp;To:  <lml@lancaironline.net>;  Subject:
= > [LML] Re: To=0AMarv  Sent:  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39= :28 PM    
> I second your post. I am surprised b= y the comment.=0A
>
> steve alderman   N25SA  3= 60
>
> .
> -----Original Message----- From: Claudette = Colwell=0A<colwell.ch@gmail.com>
>To: lml <lml@lancaironlin= e.net> Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject:
>[LML] To=0AMarv&= nbsp; 
> It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparent= ly directed to Matt
>appeared on the LML.  This has always=0Abe= en a constructive exchange of
>information and ideas.  That typ= e of personal comment is not in keeping with
>the spirit of=0Acooper= ative sharing of information.
>  
> Claudette  = ;

=0A
--=0A=0AFor archives and unsub http://mail.lancairon=
line.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
=0A


=


--430928906-191368715-1376419520=:76753--