X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 13:05:30 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from col0-omc3-s1.col0.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.139] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTP id 6416310 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:54:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.55.34.139; envelope-from=peterpawaviation@hotmail.com Received: from COL129-W21 ([65.55.34.137]) by col0-omc3-s1.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 09:54:08 -0700 X-TMN: [EJrYWi6th45fFNPZo9HoROMpDTgNjttQ] X-Originating-Email: [peterpawaviation@hotmail.com] X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: peterpawaviation@hotmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_004a0430-8e22-4d34-87d2-a39fb811c3bb_" From: PETER WILLIAMS X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: DOWNWIND ABEAM -power off X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:54:08 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2013 16:54:08.0850 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA71AB20:01CE9845] --_004a0430-8e22-4d34-87d2-a39fb811c3bb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi there downwind abeam the numbers at 1=2C000 feet=2C there is no way to do a norm= al landing in a 4/4P=3B at 1.500 feet with prop as slow as you can get (2= =2C000rpm or below) you would have a chance. the vertical speed at that set= ting will be 8-900 fmp. with high prop RMP figure 1=2C700 FMP. if you go over the numbers in the direction of the runway at 3=2C000 feet a= nd get the RPMs down low you will land on the numbers after doing a 45 degr= ee bank=2C 360 turn. Not with a lot to spare. peter To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue=2C 13 Aug 2013 09:25:49 -0400 From: bbradburry@bellsouth.net Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= That seems a scenario where you would be=0A= in better shape with the flaps up. You very well might make the=0A= runway. With flaps down=2C you likely would not and it would be very=0A= dangerous to try and retract them. With the high wing loading that all the= =0A= Lancairs have=2C they are flying bricks with no power. I think almost=0A= nobody makes the approach to land with no power.=0A= =0A= Remember way back in primary training when=0A= the instructor had you remove power abeam the numbers and make the landing= =0A= without having to add power? Does anyone practice that maneuver with=0A= their Lancair?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Bill B=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill= Hannahan =0A= Sent: Tuesday=2C August 13=2C 2013=0A= 6:33 AM =0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A= Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Matt=2C I=0A= agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable=2C but I must ask a= =0A= question.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= What do you do if your low over the=0A= departure end of the runway and the engine quits?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= 1. Land at high speed flaps up.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= 2. Lower the flaps and deal=0A= with the big trim and pitch change while making all the other decisions and= =0A= actions required in parallel.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= 3. ?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Regards=2C=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Bill=0A= Hannahan=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= wfhannahan@yahoo.com=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ----- Forwarded=0A= Message ----- =0A= From: "marv@lancair.net"=0A= =0A= To: lml =20 =0A= Sent: Monday=2C August 12=2C 2013 4:02=0A= PM =0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on=0A= take-off?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Posted for Matt losangeles : =0A= =0A= > I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off so= =0A= I=20 =0A= >don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a=20 =0A= >scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to departure= =20 =0A= >control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something the= =20 =0A= >requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know=2C while=0A= distracted=2C=20 =0A= > I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am=0A= down low=20 =0A= >like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem=2C the= =20 =0A= >plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so. =0A= > =20 =0A= > I also would guess if you use flaps on take off=2C this adds drag and=0A= slows=20 =0A= >your rate of climb (I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a=0A= couple=20 =0A= >seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before th= e=0A= =0A= >guy using flaps (again=2C this is my guess since I have not tested the two= =20 =0A= >scenarios). =0A= > =20 =0A= > Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the=20 =0A= >EAA=2C "There is no FAA approved flight manual or POH=0A= for experimental=20 =0A= >aircraft=2C nor is there a TC". =20 =0A= > =20 =0A= > Ohh=2C what about those reno=0A= racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded thier=20 =0A= >flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of the= =20 =0A= >hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were mean= t=0A= =0A= >to be flown. You could argue they are reno=0A= racers I suppose. It is also=20 =0A= >likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year to= =0A= fly=20 =0A= >all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on takeoff. =0A= > =20 =0A= > "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of=0A= safety" =0A= > I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that=0A= flaps=20 =0A= >do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so I= =0A= can=20 =0A= >see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If the speed you land=0A= at makes=20 =0A= >such a difference=2C then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane tha= t=20 =0A= >lands at a slower speed. =0A= > =20 =0A= > Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots=2C blindly following the POH makes= =20 =0A= >sense. It is funny=2C I remember having this EXACT same argument on a Moon= ey=20 =0A= >board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard th= e=0A= =0A= >same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are completely=0A= reckless=20 =0A= >and should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had a= =20 =0A= >point. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off with= =20 =0A= >flaps. =0A= > =20 =0A= > Something else to consider=2C if flaps are so critical to flight on our=20 =0A= >planes=2C why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they alw= ays=0A= =0A= >go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the=0A= plane=20 =0A= >will fly just fine without them. =0A= > =20 =0A= > Matt =0A= >=20 =0A= >=20 =0A= > ________________________________ =0A= > From: Art Jensen =0A= > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 =0A= > Sent: Monday=2C August 12=2C 2013 1:46 PM =0A= > Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv =0A= > =20 =0A= > Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness=2C but the truth remain= s=20 =0A= >that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown the= n=0A= =0A= >you should not be flying that plane.=20 =0A= >=20 =0A= > I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety and=20 =0A= >should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe ever= y=0A= =0A= >instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree. If an=0A= instructor=20 =0A= >reading this disagrees=2C please share why you disagree with me. =0A= >=20 =0A= > Art =0A= >=20 =0A= > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad =20 =0A= >=20 =0A= >=20 =0A= > ________________________________ =0A= > From: steve=0A= =3B To: =3B Subject:=0A= =0A= > [LML] Re: To Marv Sent: Mon=2C Aug 12=2C 2013 5:39:28=0A= PM =20 =0A= > I second your post. I am surprised by the comment.=20 =0A= >=20 =0A= > steve alderman N25SA 360=20 =0A= >=20 =0A= > .=20 =0A= > -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell=0A= =20 =0A= >To: lml Sent: Mon=2C Aug 12=2C 2013 5:43 am=0A= Subject:=20 =0A= >[LML] To Marv =20 =0A= > It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to Mat= t=0A= =0A= >appeared on the LML. This has always been a constructive exchange of=20 =0A= >information and ideas. That type of personal comment is not in=0A= keeping with=20 =0A= >the spirit of cooperative sharing of information.=20 =0A= > =20 =0A= > Claudette =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.h= tml=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= = --_004a0430-8e22-4d34-87d2-a39fb811c3bb_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hi there

downwind abe= am the numbers at 1=2C000 feet=2C there is no way to do a normal landing in= a 4/4P=3B at 1.500 feet with prop as slow as you can get (2=2C000rpm or be= low) you would have a chance. the vertical speed at that setting will be 8-= 900 fmp. with high prop RMP figure 1=2C700 FMP.

if you go over the n= umbers in the direction of the runway at 3=2C000 feet and get the RPMs down= low you will land on the numbers after doing a 45 degree bank=2C 360 turn.= Not with a lot to spare.

peter

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tue=2C 13 Aug 2013 09:25:49 -0400From: bbradburry@bellsouth.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off?
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

That see= ms a scenario where you would be=0A= in better shape with the flaps up. =3B You very well might make the=0A= runway. =3B With flaps down=2C you likely would not and it would be ver= y=0A= dangerous to try and retract them. =3B With the high wing loading that = all the=0A= Lancairs have=2C they are flying bricks with no power. =3B I think almo= st=0A= nobody makes the approach to land with no power.

=0A= =0A=

Remember= way back in primary training when=0A= the instructor had you remove power abeam the numbers and make the landing= =0A= without having to add power? =3B Does anyone practice that maneuver wit= h=0A= their Lancair?

=0A= =0A=

 =3B=

=0A= =0A=

Bill B

=0A= =0A=

 =3B=

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf Of Bill H= annahan
=0A= Sent: Tuesday=2C August 1= 3=2C 2013=0A= 6:33 AM
=0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net=
=0A= Subject: [LML] Flaps on t= ake-off?

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

Matt=2C I=0A= agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable=2C but I must ask a= =0A= question.

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B<= /font>

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

What do you do i= f your low over the=0A= departure end of the runway and the engine quits?

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B<= /font>

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

1. =3B Land = at high speed flaps up.

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B<= /font>

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

2. =3B = =3B Lower the flaps and deal=0A= with the big trim and pitch change while making all the other decisions and= =0A= actions required in parallel.

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B<= /font>

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

3. =3B = =3B ?

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

Regards=2C

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

Bill=0A= Hannahan

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=


=0A= wfhannahan@yahoo.= com

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

----- Forwarded=0A= Message -----
=0A= From: "ma= rv@lancair.net"=0A= <=3Bmarv@lancair.net>=3B
=0A= To: lml <=3Blml>=3B <= br>=0A= Sent: Monday=2C August 12= =2C 2013 4:02=0A= PM
=0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps = on=0A= take-off?

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=

 =3B

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=


=0A=
=0A=
=0A= Posted for Matt losangeles <=3Bmattinlosangeles@yahoo.com>=3B:
=0A=
=0A= >=3B I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift o= ff so=0A= I
=0A= >=3Bdon't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see= a
=0A= >=3Bscenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to depa= rture
=0A= >=3Bcontrol while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something= the
=0A= >=3Brequires me to look at my map and the next thing you know=2C while=0A= distracted=2C
=0A= >=3B =3BI am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When = I am=0A= down low
=0A= >=3Blike that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem= =2C the
=0A= >=3Bplane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so.
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B I also would guess if you use flaps on take off=2C this adds drag&nb= sp=3Band=0A= slows
=0A= >=3Byour rate of climb (I have not tested this). =3BI am able to be a= t Vy a=0A= couple
=0A= >=3Bseconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude befo= re the=0A=
=0A= >=3Bguy using flaps (again=2C this is my guess since I have not tested th= e two
=0A= >=3Bscenarios).
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the <= br>=0A= >=3BEAA=2C =3B"There is =3B =3Bno FAA approved flight manual = or POH=0A= for experimental
=0A= >=3Baircraft=2C nor is there a =3B =3BTC". =3B
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B Ohh=2C what about those reno=0A= racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded thier
=0A= >=3Bflaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag o= f the
=0A= >=3Bhindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were= meant=0A=
=0A= >=3Bto be flown. You could argue they are reno=0A= racers I suppose. It is also
=0A= >=3Blikely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year= to=0A= fly
=0A= >=3Ball over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on take= off.
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of=0A= safety"
=0A= >=3B  =3BI personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't ag= ree that=0A= flaps
=0A= >=3Bdo in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing = so I=0A= can
=0A= >=3Bsee out the window and out of habit I suppose. =3BIf the speed yo= u land=0A= at makes
=0A= >=3Bsuch a difference=2C then the best thing to be doing is flying a plan= e that
=0A= >=3Blands at a slower speed.
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots=2C blindly following the POH = makes
=0A= >=3Bsense. It is funny=2C I remember having this EXACT same argument on a= Mooney
=0A= >=3Bboard. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I hea= rd the=0A=
=0A= >=3Bsame thing there. Follow the POH explicitly =3Bor you are complet= ely=0A= reckless
=0A= >=3Band should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys h= ad a
=0A= >=3Bpoint. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off= with
=0A= >=3Bflaps.
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B Something else to consider=2C if flaps are so critical to flight on = our
=0A= >=3Bplanes=2C why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure the= y always=0A=
=0A= >=3Bgo down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because th= e=0A= plane
=0A= >=3Bwill fly just fine without them.
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B Matt
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B ________________________________
=0A= >=3B From: Art Jensen <=3Bflycassutts@yahoo.com>=3B
=0A= >=3B To: lml@lancaironline.net
=0A= >=3B Sent: Monday=2C August 12=2C 2013 1:46 PM
=0A= >=3B Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv
=0A= >=3B =3B =3B
=0A= >=3B Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness=2C but the truth r= emains
=0A= >=3Bthat if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flow= n then=0A=
=0A= >=3Byou should not be flying that plane.
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety = and
=0A= >=3Bshould be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe= every=0A=
=0A= >=3Binstructor giving training in a Lancair would agree. =3B =3BI= f an=0A= instructor
=0A= >=3Breading this disagrees=2C please share why you disagree with me.
= =0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B Art
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad =3B =3B
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B ________________________________
=0A= >=3B From: =3B =3Bsteve=0A= <=3Bn5276j@aol.com>=3B=3B =3B =3BTo: =3B =3B<=3Blml@l= ancaironline.net>=3B=3B =3B =3BSubject:=0A=
=0A= >=3B [LML] Re: To Marv =3B =3BSent: =3B =3BMon=2C Aug 12= =2C 2013 5:39:28=0A= PM =3B =3B =3B =3B
=0A= >=3B I second your post. I am surprised by the comment.
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B steve alderman =3B =3B N25SA =3B 360
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B .
=0A= >=3B -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell=0A= <=3Bcolwell.ch@gmail.com>=3B
=0A= >=3BTo: lml <=3Blml@lancaironline.net>=3B Sent: Mon=2C Aug 12=2C 2013= 5:43 am=0A= Subject:
=0A= >=3B[LML] To Marv =3B =3B
=0A= >=3B It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed t= o Matt=0A=
=0A= >=3Bappeared on the LML. =3B This has always been a constructive exch= ange of
=0A= >=3Binformation and ideas. =3B That type of personal comment is not i= n=0A= keeping with
=0A= >=3Bthe spirit of cooperative sharing of information.
=0A= >=3B  =3B
=0A= >=3B Claudette =3B =3B

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= 
--
=
 =3B
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/=
lists/lml/List.html
=0A= =0A=

 =3B

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A=
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