X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-d10.mx.aol.com ([205.188.108.134] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6416296 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:42:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.108.134; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.11]) by omr-d10.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 2C5E27003F636 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mte003a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mte003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.236.73]) by mtaomg-ma04.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id D4EC9E000086 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:42:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com Full-name: Sky2high Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_acb98.7c751477.3f3bbbe6_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1376412135; bh=VhrY4yQPQC4BwnB42O5ahZlyDOvwYN5Qs2f/zrKgkCs=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Lcqkg5GaXhuZeiGcYogucBVxujTiizOPtHO3tVJla8V0MfoeZ2al+pSdWVbYe94Dp 1WyGM4WkI5V6Ukr6nWEVlEfhwNxJuR2WYrTVZ/9Uut43tb18vJ8B5vblw/g9zsR8yW BhrFCerpHW+8CIvBz5A1ZwO0x4FdXpmd5Cvz9jv4= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290b520a61e651d5 --part1_acb98.7c751477.3f3bbbe6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en OK, I have half the 320 time as Bill H, but probably more takeoffs and =20 landings since he sometimes spends 20 hours aloft betwixt each takeoff and= =20 landing. =20 In any event, take off safety is a matter of some analysis which may vary = =20 from pilot to pilot, depending on experience. I am old, grumpy and like to= =20 have decisions pre-thought-out so that time is not wasted contemplating =20 navel lint. I.E. I consider 700 AGL as a magic altitude number on take off= =20 and the pre-decision is to land within 30 degrees of heading below that =20 altitude. Why? Below 700 there are too many variables such as aircraft= =20 configuration when the engine fails. But there is more ...=20 =20 0. Before taking runway, determine action based on environment if engine= =20 quits below 700 AGL. You have 400 ft more natural AGL after the end of th= e=20 runway at the Sedona airport located on a mesa.=20 1. Flaps always set to 10 degrees down from the reflex position (-7) for a= =20 shorter take off run. 2. Pitch trim set to same neutral position all the time before take off so= =20 the airplane must be flown off runway. 3. Gear up immediately after take off to reduce pure drag. 4. Pitch set to achieve a target 135-140 KIAS ASAP. 5. When the wheels are tucked away, flaps to reflex, adjusting pitch=20 forces to maintain 135-400 KIAS (because of flap induced change). Note, c= limb=20 rate is now 1500 to 1800 fpm. Note that 700 AGL is usually attained in less than 30 seconds, forward =20 speed keeps engine cool and any communication from ATC is Rogered, ignored= or=20 receives "stand by" response. Climb rate is better than that required by= =20 any rational airport designers. Since best glide is around 107 KIAS and i= f=20 the engine fails below 700 AGL, pitch to best glide immediately and pull= =20 prop to coarse pitch - speed excess over best glide will usually result is= =20 additional altitude gain, depending on configuration drag. =20 After 700 AGL, climb power is selected (WOT, 2600 RPM, lean as necessary to= =20 maintain take off EGTs) and a climb speed of 135-140 KIAS is maintained. = =20 If there is an engine failure now, there are more options, including Dave= =20 Morss's steeeep turn back to the airport.=20 =20 In agreement with Bill and as I have said before, the difference between= =20 the rate of descent at the clean configuration best glide speed, engine at= =20 zero thrust and the prop at cruise pitch or coarse pitch is respectively= =20 1500 fpm vs 500 pfm. 500 fpm at 107 KIAS is about a 20:1 descent ratio. = =20 Slick airplane glide performance is greatly affected by any drag. =20 Blue Skies, =20 Scott Krueger =20 =20 In a message dated 8/13/2013 9:37:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 n5zq@verizon.net writes: =20 Hi Bill, =20 When I introduce a pilot to the Lancair 320/360, I explain that they need= =20 to check out in two completely different airplanes...dirty and clean. I=20 have measured the glide ratio of our 320 with power off, clean and the pro= p=20 full aft at better than 20:1. That=E2=80=99s hardly a brick, more like a S= chweizer=20 2-33 glider. At the other end of the spectrum is the same plane dirty. Now= =20 you have the proverbial brick.=20 =20 I regularly practice power off approaches in both the 320 and the IV. Get = =20 training from a LOBO or HPAT instructor and you=E2=80=99ll gain a great dea= l of =20 confidence in handling these planes power off. It CAN be done safely and = =20 consistently. One skill that you=E2=80=99ll need to acquire is knowing whe= n to convert=20 from glider to brick. =20 Bill Harrelson N5ZQ 320 2,150 hrs N6ZQ IV 350 hrs =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: _Bill Bradburry_ (mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net) =20 Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:25 AM To: _lml@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:lml@lancaironline.net) =20 Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? =20 =20 =20 That seems a scenario where you would be in better shape with the flaps=20 up. You very well might make the runway. With flaps down, you likely wou= ld=20 not and it would be very dangerous to try and retract them. With the high= =20 wing loading that all the Lancairs have, they are flying bricks with no = =20 power. I think almost nobody makes the approach to land with no power.=20 Remember way back in primary training when the instructor had you remove= =20 power abeam the numbers and make the landing without having to add power? = =20 Does anyone practice that maneuver with their Lancair?=20 Bill B --part1_acb98.7c751477.3f3bbbe6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
OK, I have half the 320 time as Bill H, but probably more takeoffs and= =20 landings since he sometimes spends 20 hours aloft betwixt each takeoff=20 and landing.
 
In any event, take off safety is a matter of some analysis which may v= ary=20 from pilot to pilot, depending on experience.  I am old, grumpy and li= ke to=20 have decisions pre-thought-out so that time is not wasted contemplatin= g=20 navel lint.  I.E. I consider 700 AGL as a magic altitude number on tak= e off=20 and the pre-decision is to land within 30 degrees of heading below that=20 altitude.  Why?  Below 700 there are too many variables such as= =20 aircraft configuration when the engine fails.  But there is more = ...=20
 
0. Before taking runway, determine action based on environment if= =20 engine quits below 700 AGL.  You have 400 ft more natural AGL aft= er=20 the end of the runway at the Sedona airport located on a mesa. 
1. Flaps always set to 10 degrees down from the reflex position (-7) f= or=20 a shorter take off run.
2. Pitch trim set to same neutral position all the time before ta= ke=20 off so the airplane must be flown off runway.
3. Gear up immediately after take off to reduce pure drag.
4. Pitch set to achieve a target 135-140 KIAS ASAP.
5. When the wheels are tucked away, flaps to reflex, adjusti= ng=20 pitch forces to maintain 135-400 KIAS (because of flap induced=20 change).  Note, climb rate is now 1500 to 1800 fpm.
Note that 700 AGL is usually attained in less than 30 seconds, forward= =20 speed keeps engine cool and any communication from ATC is=20 Rogered, ignored or receives "stand by" response.  Climb rate=20 is better than that required by any rational airport=20 designers.  Since best glide is around 107 KIAS and if the engine fail= s=20 below 700 AGL, pitch to best glide immediately and pull prop to coarse=20 pitch - speed excess over best glide will usually result is= =20 additional altitude gain, depending on configuration drag.
 
After 700 AGL, climb power is selected (WOT, 2600 RPM, lean as necessa= ry to=20 maintain take off EGTs) and a climb speed of 135-140 KIAS=20 is maintained.  If there is an engine failure now, there are more= =20 options, including Dave Morss's steeeep turn back to the airport. 
 
In agreement with Bill and as I have said before, the difference= =20 between the rate of descent at the clean configuration best glide= =20 speed, engine at zero thrust and the prop at cruise pitch or coarse pitch i= s=20 respectively 1500 fpm vs 500 pfm.  500 fpm at 107 KIAS is about a= 20:1=20 descent ratio.  Slick airplane glide performance is greatly affected b= y any=20 drag.
 
Blue Skies,
 
Scott Krueger
 
In a message dated 8/13/2013 9:37:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 n5zq@verizon.net writes:
=
Hi Bill,
 
When I introduce a pilot to the Lancair= =20 320/360, I explain that they need to check out in two completely differen= t=20 airplanes...dirty and clean. I have measured the glide ratio of our 320 w= ith=20 power off, clean and the prop full aft at better than 20:1. That=E2=80=99= s hardly a=20 brick, more like a Schweizer 2-3= 3 glider.=20 At the other end of the spectrum is the same plane dirty. Now you have th= e=20 proverbial brick.
 
I=20 regularly practice power off approaches in both the 320 and the IV. Get= =20 training from a LOBO or HPAT instructor and you=E2=80=99ll gain a great d= eal of=20 confidence in handling these planes power off. It CAN be done safely and= =20 consistently.  One skill that you=E2=80=99ll need to acquire is know= ing when to=20 convert from glider to brick.
 
Bill Harrelson
N5ZQ 320 2,150 hrs
N6ZQ  IV  350 hrs
 
 
 
 
From: Bill Bradburry
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:25 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off?
 

That seems a s= cenario=20 where you would be in better shape with the flaps up.  You very well= =20 might make the runway.  With flaps down, you likely would not and it= =20 would be very dangerous to try and retract them.  With the high wing= =20 loading that all the Lancairs have, they are flying bricks with no=20 power.  I think almost nobody makes the approach to land with no=20 power.

Remember way b= ack in=20 primary training when the instructor had you remove power abeam the numbe= rs=20 and make the landing without having to add power?  Does anyone pract= ice=20 that maneuver with their Lancair?

 

Bill=20 B

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