X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.78] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTP id 6303193 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:18:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.78; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.141]) by omr-m04.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 2D1C3700000BB for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2013 15:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mta001c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mta001.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.234.129]) by mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 53889E00008A for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2013 15:18:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com Full-name: Sky2high Message-ID: <93b3a.5e47c53c.3edcf478@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 15:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [LML] loss of power on takeoff To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_93b3a.5e47c53c.3edcf478_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1370200696; bh=AwipEOX3GzdAuF0T22Tzb2/Xbw4Td38M6H3IvMU6SSo=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=OSMZ7VxnX2RisbYuuxB2JP4s01wYdFpQc7aw7owJPJcMWwFmclO67IV35AahyIxuF e9wXH3sAbGtUajwSLXCWGfsgjG6OyzRnuW8ew34ja5mGF3O9Vmh+3qlU0eCO4khQ7l rYftVEVoZUa6LMTnsFvX0WxjxeFkEn0f2wjxc3yo= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:457909504:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338d51ab9a787d1e --part1_93b3a.5e47c53c.3edcf478_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, et al, In a descent, the stall speed is different because the wing is not lifting the same weight as it would be in level 1-G flight. However, that only accounts for the vertical component. The hi-G turn (like 70 degrees of bank) is still adding sgnificant load to the wings. In a slick airplane any drag is significant. As I said, for me the safest thing to do on take off is clean up the airplane and achieve a decent speed in the climb (like 135 KIAS in a 320 - you can always trade excess speed for altitude if you dare). Then, engine loss with a CS prop still turning should make one think about pulling it to coarse pitch soon. In one experiment in my 320 near max gross weight, approximately zero thrust, at best glide speed and with the prop in a cruise pitch setting the descent rate was about 1500 fpm - at coarse pitch (about 42 degrees I think) the rate was reduced to around 500 fpm. Yeah, that's significant. Practice, yes if you want to add this method ..... Keep the nose down and the speed up. Notice that the spreadsheet allows for some numbers to be input to see how other things are affected. In one example, even the calculated altitude loss for a 60 degree banked turn was only a few hundred feet. But, I wouldn't generally try a turn back below 700 AGL. I am just not that good and there are many aircraft configuration possibilities during a low altitude engine failure that further complicate things. Just my opinion....... Blue Skies, Scott In a message dated 6/2/2013 1:08:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, morss@pacbell.net writes: in scotts reply he includes a graph of stall speeds vrs bank in a level turn.remember this turn around maneuver is not level but descending so the stall speed doesn't increase as much as the graph but if you get ground rush and try to arrest the descent rate in the turn you will probably stall more reason to practice at altitude and see if this is something you might want to include in your bag of tricks dave -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --part1_93b3a.5e47c53c.3edcf478_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave, et al,
 
In a descent, the stall speed is different because the = wing=20 is not lifting the same weight as it would be in level 1-G flight. =20 However, that only accounts for the vertical component.  The= hi-G=20 turn (like 70 degrees of bank) is still adding sgnificant load to= the=20 wings.
 
In a slick airplane any drag is significant.  As I said, for me t= he=20 safest thing to do on take off is clean up the airplane and achie= ve a=20 decent speed in the climb (like 135 KIAS in a 320 - you can always tra= de=20 excess speed for altitude if you dare).  Then, engine loss with a= =20 CS prop still turning should make one think about pulling it to coarse= =20 pitch soon.  In one experiment in my 320 near max gross weight,= =20 approximately zero thrust, at best glide speed and with the prop in&nb= sp;a=20 cruise pitch setting the descent rate was about 1500 fpm - a= t=20 coarse pitch (about 42 degrees I think) the rate was reduced to around 500= =20 fpm.  Yeah, that's significant. 
 
Practice, yes if you want to add this method ..... Keep the nose down = and=20 the speed up.  Notice that the spreadsheet allows for some numbers to = be=20 input to see how other things are affected.  In one example, even the= =20 calculated altitude loss for a 60 degree banked turn was only a few hu= ndred=20 feet.  But, I wouldn't generally try a turn back below 700 AGL.  = I=20 am just not that good and there are many aircraft configuration= =20 possibilities during a low altitude engine failure that further compli= cate=20 things.
 
Just my opinion.......
 
Blue Skies,
 
Scott    
 
In a message dated 6/2/2013 1:08:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 morss@pacbell.net writes:
= in=20 scotts reply he includes a graph of stall speeds vrs bank in a level=20 turn.remember this turn around maneuver is not level but descending so th= e=20 stall speed doesn't increase as much as the graph but if you get ground r= ush=20 and try to arrest the descent rate in the turn you will probably stallmore=20 reason to practice at altitude and see if this is something you might wan= t to=20 include in your bag of tricks
dave
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