X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:17:04 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from carbinge.com ([69.5.27.218] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with SMTP id 6003881 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:52:21 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.5.27.218; envelope-from=jbarrett@carbinge.com Received: (qmail 31231 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2013 01:51:47 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; h=X-Originating-IP:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; s=default; d=carbinge.com; b=ZEtpJ4LQ8sIVN9PvhF9wHHHPnPwagkZdaw/n8/gyoWRzBm3TALNeBghcU7n16wQmiQuOLQ3e0tf7Ix5lXL28IkbPsSdraHRRPv7tNQ7Mz8/ztM3N4epycLuwXtCacQZnDUAFlP0dgJmMr8zKwRK243BzED8houQfmyDgz/wTX4w=; X-Originating-IP: [66.235.58.245] Reply-To: From: "John Barrett" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Stalls and more X-Original-Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 17:51:45 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: <020901cdeed5$0c8d3d40$25a7b7c0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_020A_01CDEE91.FE69FD40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac3uyfr3CYjhpfL1QcSPDVZJUqS4sgACTSeA Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_020A_01CDEE91.FE69FD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dom wrote: As an inadvertent spin is likely to occur close to Mother Earth, we of "average" ability are not only unlikely to recover, but certainly will not be able to determine all of the aerodynamic characteristics associated with the spin. The point is still being missed: at least with the IV, average ability, or any level of ability has no relevance to recovery from a spin close to Mother Earth. It is almost guaranteed that NO ONE can do that. Well, maybe God can. And even further away from Mother Earth will probably treat you no better. Therefore, just as you must have learned in the A320, never ever get into a spin, inadvertent or otherwise in your Lancair IV. I certainly agree with you about the Air France crash. Talk about heads up and locked! And how do you do that as a group???? I can see that happening to one pilot, but three at once? Well, maybe the Captain, when he finally showed up, might have figured out what was up but he couldn't override the copilot's erroneous control input. John Barrett From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dominic V. Crain Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 4:32 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Stalls and more The development of comment on most issues can become positively very technical as the discussion progresses. This is another example, but indeed, a worthwhile topic. It helps to gain knowledge from the experience of those who have it. Don't remember if Orv and Wil wrote much about it. Nevertheless, as I recall, most civil aircraft designs from a certified aspect, should exhibit characteristics which the "average" pilot can cope with. Reading the current topic on stalls, with the expertise of contributors, I am beginning to wonder if Lancairs should be sold to, or owned by, anyone who is not able to address the mind to the various and compounding forces associated with a rapid and inadvertent entry into a spin. As an inadvertent spin is likely to occur close to Mother Earth, we of "average" ability are not only unlikely to recover, but certainly will not be able to determine all of the aerodynamic characteristics associated with the spin. Now, don't misunderstand me, I read all the inputs to the topic voraciously, and attempt to draw on the knowledge of those who clearly have (had) greater exposure than we of "average" ability. The only time I am anywhere a speed which is associated with a stall is in transition during take-off, and in the flare during landing. The bit I enjoy is in between at the best speed performance I can get. That said, I have done stall testing on two occasions, enough to know what my 320 exhibits as it approaches the stall. My Lancair also has an aural stall warning system which the builder designed. In relation to the Air France A330 condition, and drawing on memory of the report, it went from cruise to the water in around 3 minutes with a final forward airspeed of around 60 knots. It is difficult to understand that none of these pilots did not disregard the EFIS and refer to the basics, the standby steams, AI, ASI, and ALT. Even if the steam ASI was inaccurate due icing, the high pitch angle and unwinding ALT should have been a red flag to lower the nose to the horizon and firewall the thrust levers. It is now 24 years since I first flew the A320 and I well recall most of us transitioning to it wondering "what the hell is it doing", but sitting there doing nothing was not an option. By the time I retired ten years ago, I'd worked most of it out. Dominic V. Crain domcrain@tpg.com.au Phone 03-94161881 Mobile 0412-359320 VH-CZJ ------=_NextPart_000_020A_01CDEE91.FE69FD40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dom wrote:

 

As an inadvertent spin is likely to occur close to = Mother Earth, we of "average" ability are not only unlikely = to recover, but certainly will not be able to determine all of the = aerodynamic characteristics associated with the = spin.

 

The point is still being missed:  at least with = the IV, average ability, or any level of ability has no relevance to = recovery from a spin close to Mother Earth.  It is almost = guaranteed that NO ONE can do that.  Well, maybe God can.  And = even further away from Mother Earth will probably treat you no = better.

 

Therefore, just as you must have learned in the = A320,  never ever get into a spin, inadvertent or otherwise in your = Lancair IV.

 

I certainly agree with you about the Air France = crash.  Talk about heads up and locked!   And how do you = do that as a group????  I can see that happening to one pilot, but = three at once?  Well, maybe the Captain, when he finally showed up, = might have figured out what was up but he couldn’t override the = copilot’s erroneous control input.

 

John = Barrett

 

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dominic V. Crain
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 4:32 = PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Stalls = and more

 

The = development of comment on most issues can become positively very = technical as the discussion progresses.

This is another example, but indeed, a worthwhile = topic. It helps to gain knowledge from the experience of those who have = it.

Don't remember if Orv = and Wil wrote much about it.

Nevertheless, as I recall, most civil aircraft designs = from a certified aspect, should exhibit characteristics which the = "average" pilot can cope with.

Reading the current topic on stalls, with the = expertise of contributors, I am beginning to wonder if Lancairs should = be sold to, or owned by, anyone who is not able to address the mind to = the various and compounding forces associated with a rapid and = inadvertent entry into a spin.

As an inadvertent spin is likely to occur close to = Mother Earth, we of "average" ability are not only unlikely to = recover, but certainly will not be able to determine all of the = aerodynamic characteristics associated with the = spin.

Now, don't = misunderstand me, I read all the inputs to the topic voraciously, and = attempt to draw on the knowledge of those who clearly have (had) greater = exposure than we of "average" = ability.

The only time I = am anywhere a speed which is associated with a stall is in transition = during take-off, and in the flare during landing. The bit I enjoy is in = between at the best speed performance I can = get.

That said, I have = done stall testing on two occasions, enough to know what my 320 exhibits = as it approaches the stall. My Lancair also has an aural stall warning = system which the builder designed.

In relation to the Air France A330 condition, and = drawing on memory of the report, it went from cruise to the water in = around 3 minutes with a final forward airspeed of around 60 knots. It is = difficult to understand that none of these pilots did not disregard the = EFIS and refer to the basics, the standby steams, AI, ASI, and = ALT.

Even if the steam ASI = was inaccurate due icing, the high pitch angle and unwinding ALT should = have been a red flag to lower the nose to the horizon and firewall the = thrust levers.

It is now = 24 years since I first flew the A320 and I well recall most of us = transitioning to it wondering "what the hell is it doing", but = sitting there doing nothing was not an = option.

By the time I = retired ten years ago, I'd worked most of it = out.

 

Dominic V. Crain

Phone = 03-94161881

Mobile = 0412-359320

 

VH-CZJ

 

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