X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:35:19 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com ([17.158.58.247] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6002993 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:58:14 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=17.158.58.247; envelope-from=gw5@me.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_1vRXMedfWQXh737meIK/Yw)" Received: from [10.55.210.255] (216-147-135-217.globalsat.net [216.147.135.217]) by nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-26.01(7.0.4.26.0) 64bit (built Jul 13 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MGD008FNB3WTK40@nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 16:57:42 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.9.8327,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-01-09_07:2013-01-09,2013-01-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1203120001 definitions=main-1301090131 From: George Wehrung X-Original-Message-id: Subject: Re: [LML] Stalls & Spins X-Original-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:27:33 +0430 References: X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-reply-to: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) --Boundary_(ID_1vRXMedfWQXh737meIK/Yw) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Bruce, Just watched it. Quite sad. Looks like he came in slow and when he = reefed the stick back he bled all of his energy and the engine couldn't = power him out of it. George On Jan 9, 2013, at 2:38 AM, Bruce Whitaker = wrote: > George, >=20 > Here is another video that some of the smart fellers out here think = may demonstrate gyroscopic forces on the airplane. > The longer arm of the turbine propeller, acting as a gyro, is thought = to cause an uncontrollable condition. Similar geometry to a turbine = LIV. > http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3Dbbe_1250712882 >=20 > Bruce=20 >=20 >=20 > From: George Wehrung > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 > Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 1:10 PM > Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins >=20 > Skip, >=20 > Thank you for the video and explanation. I too was a Naval Aviation = Safety Officer, T-34C flight instructor, functional check pilot, and = taught the high and low out-of-control syllabi to new instructors. >=20 > So although, I am familiar with spins, progressive spins, spirals (had = a few of those because of bad elevator/aileron rigging), high and low = altitude departures I have no interest in spinning our Lancair. I am = interested in slow flighting and learning where and what the stall = indications are for two purposes. The first being to recognize the = initial indications of stall onset and recovery for this airframe. = Secondly, is to calibrate the AOA system as we switched over from the = separate AOA computer to the built in system within the Advanced Flight = Deck 4000S. I need to re-plumb the AOA tubing from the old computer to = the advanced deck, then a calibration flight will be in order. Once = this is done and I have some data I will know the specific envelope to = keep this plane happy. >=20 > In the mean time I am trying to learn as much as I can about this = airframe from others who may have gone before me and to also have as = accurate a POH as possible since I am gone and can't fly the plane till = spring time. >=20 > Thanks again, >=20 > George >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jan 8, 2013, at 8:29 PM, Skip Slater = wrote: >=20 >> George, >> Attached is the ES spin video Ron was talking about. When I first = saw it several years ago, I saved it.=20 >> The story behind the clip is that a builder hired an ex-Air Force = fighter pilot to do his Phase 1 testing for him. I swapped e-mails with = the pilot after this came out and got the full story. This guy took = testing seriously, mapping out planned maneuvers for each flight, = wearing a helmet and parachute and videotaping every flight. One of the = things he did was to perform a series of stall tests at progressively = further aft CG's, I assume by adding ballast to the back of the plane, = as he always flew alone.. Doing spins was not part of his test plan. = During the stall in the video, his CG was fairly well aft and as you can = see, the plane unexpectedly and abruptly departed to the left. He told = me that when he applied recovery controls, the spin actually tightened = at first but after nearly three turns and considerable loss of altitude, = it did recover. Had this happened at pattern altitude, recovery would = have been impossible. At that point he stopped doing any further stall = testing and he told me that his recommendation was that spins be a = prohibited maneuver in the ES. >> I got to do a lot of spins in prop and jet trainers in the Navy = and would never even consider trying on in my ES. I did approaches to = stalls to calibrate my AOA (something I feel should be an essential part = of any experimental's instrument panel), but have not done any since, as = I can't even get close to stall speed now without the aural warning the = AOA generates and would have to ignore it to do so. >> I'm with Jeff and LOBO on this subject - I don't recommend = intentional stalls in Lancairs. Because each is built a little = differently, it's probable that each would handle a little differently = at high AOA. And as has been pointed out, the most likely place for a = stall is in the traffic pattern and if you depart controlled flight = there, all the training or practice in the world isn't going to help = you. >> Skip Slater >> N540ES =20 >> -- >> For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html >=20 >=20 >=20 --Boundary_(ID_1vRXMedfWQXh737meIK/Yw) Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable brucewhitaker67877@yahoo.com<= /a>> wrote:
George,

Here is another video that some of the = smart fellers out here think may demonstrate gyroscopic forces on the = airplane.
The longer arm of the turbine propeller, acting as a gyro, = is thought to cause an uncontrollable condition.  Similar geometry = to a turbine LIV.
http://www.livele= ak.com/view?i=3Dbbe_1250712882

Bruce =


=
From: George Wehrung = <gw5@me.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 = 1:10 PM
Subject: = [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins

Skip,

Thank you for the video = and explanation. I too was a Naval Aviation Safety Officer, T-34C flight = instructor, functional check pilot, and taught the high and low = out-of-control syllabi to new instructors.

So = although, I am familiar with spins, progressive spins, spirals (had a = few of those because of bad elevator/aileron rigging), high and low = altitude departures I have no interest in spinning our Lancair.  I = am interested in slow flighting and learning where and what the stall = indications are for two purposes.  The first being to recognize the = initial indications of stall onset and recovery for this airframe. =  Secondly, is to calibrate the AOA system as we switched over from = the separate AOA computer to the built in system within the Advanced = Flight Deck 4000S.  I need to re-plumb the AOA tubing from the old computer to the advanced deck, then a calibration flight will = be in order.  Once this is done and I have some data I will know = the specific envelope to keep this plane = happy.

In the mean time I am trying to learn as = much as I can about this airframe from others who may have gone before = me and to also have as accurate a POH as possible since I am gone and = can't fly the plane till spring time.

Thanks = again,

George


=




On Jan = 8, 2013, at 8:29 PM, Skip Slater <skipslater@verizon.net> = wrote:

=20 =20
George,
   Attached is the ES = spin video Ron was=20 talking about.  When I first saw it several = years ago,=20 I saved it. 
=
   The story behind the = clip is that a=20 builder hired an ex-Air Force fighter pilot to do his Phase 1 testing = for=20 him.  I swapped e-mails with the pilot after this came = out and=20 got the full story.  This guy took testing seriously, mapping out = planned=20 maneuvers for each flight, wearing a helmet and parachute and = videotaping every=20 flight.  One of the things he did was to perform a series of stall = tests at=20 progressively further aft CG's, I assume by adding ballast to the back = of the=20 plane, as he always flew alone..  Doing spins was not part of his = test=20 plan.  During the stall in the video, his CG was fairly well aft = and as you=20 can see, the plane unexpectedly and abruptly departed to the=20= left.  He told me that when he applied recovery controls,=20 the spin actually tightened at first but after nearly three turns = and=20 considerable loss of altitude, it did recover.  Had this happened = at=20 pattern altitude, recovery would have been impossible.  At that = point he=20 stopped doing any further stall testing and he told me that his = recommendation=20 was that spins be a prohibited maneuver in the ES.
   I got to do a lot of = spins in prop and=20 jet trainers in the Navy and would never even consider trying on in my = ES. =20 I did approaches to stalls to calibrate my AOA (something I feel should = be an=20 essential part of any experimental's instrument panel), but have not = done any=20 since, as I can't even get close to stall speed now without the aural = warning=20 the AOA generates and would have to ignore it to do so.
   I'm with Jeff and LOBO = on this subject=20 - I don't recommend intentional stalls in Lancairs.  Because each = is built=20 a little differently, it's probable that each would handle a little = differently=20 at high AOA.  And as has been pointed out, the most likely place = for a=20 stall is in the traffic pattern and if you depart controlled flight = there, all=20 the training or practice in the world isn't going to help = you.
   Skip = Slater
   = N540ES   =20
<ES spin.mpeg>--
For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



=

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