X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:08:55 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from pit-mailgw-07.smarsh.com ([199.47.168.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 6001587 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 16:19:31 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=199.47.168.66; envelope-from=ghp@trustedwealthadvisors.com Received: from [10.6.0.88] (helo=JobsI-PDX.smarshinc.com) by pit-mailgw-07.smarsh.com with esmtp (Smarsh SMTP 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TsgZT-0001J3-6w; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 16:18:55 -0500 Received: from [10.6.0.110] (helo=cambridge.smarsh.com)by pit-obdlp-01.smarsh.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256)(Smarsh SMTP 4.77)(envelope-from )id 1TsgYd-0001f0-HU; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 16:18:03 -0500 Received: from ([173.163.46.146]) by cambridge.smarsh.com (IceWarp 10.4.3) with ASMTP (SSL) id TWA21301; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 16:18:01 -0500 From: "Gordon Porter" X-Original-To: "'Ron Galbraith'" , References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins X-Original-Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 16:18:56 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <09a701cdede5$c5f899f0$51e9cdd0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_09A8_01CDEDBB.DD2291F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: Ac3trO/7W3RiKrP0QOmwM1OaApgRVQAODlvA Content-Language: en-us X-Smarsh-Out: 1 X-Smarsh-Out-CID: cid14628smarsh X-Smarsh-PID: 1TsgYd-0001f0-HU ckx-imap-uid: 8619 ckx-imap-isUid: YES ckx-imap-seen: NO ckx-imap-answered: NO ckx-imap-deleted: NO ckx-imap-flagged: NO ckx-imap-draft: NO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_09A8_01CDEDBB.DD2291F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have quietly been taking in all this stall/spin stuff. It has given m= e a much deeper appreciation of our aircraft, and I only fly an ES. It = also explains the weird look and silence Bob Jeffrey gave me on a ES dem= o flight in 2007 when I told him I wanted to do a power off stall. I ha= ve always practiced stalls in the various certified aircraft I have flow= n. =20 I did the stall with Bob, not much notice, right wing quickly dropped, I= recovered. I think it was me=E2=80=A6might have been Bob. =20 Not doing anymore stalls in my ES. Not afraid, just smarter. =20 Gordon =20 =20 =20 Gordon H. Porter Managing Partner Trusted Wealth Advisors, LLP Registered Principal, Cambridge Investment Research, Inc. =20 800-290-2632 717-757-4908 fax 717-843-0180 =20 GHP@TrustedWealthAdvisors.= com =20 Securities offered through Cambridge Investment Research, Inc.. Member F= INRA/SIPC. Advisory Services offered through Cambridge Investment Resear= ch Advisors, Inc., a Registered Investment Advisor. Tax services are off= ered by Trusted Wealth Advisors LLP. Trusted Wealth Advisors and the Cam= bridge Investment Research companies are unaffiliated entities. Trading instructions sent via e-mail may not be honored. Please call ou= r office, or Cambridge Investment Research trading desk at 800-756-8115 , for all buy/sell orders. Please be advised that communications regard= ing trades in your account are for informational purposes only. You sho= uld continue to rely on confirmations and statements received from the c= ustodian(s) of your assets. The text of this communication is confident= ial, and use by any person who is not the intended recipient is prohibit= ed. Any person who receives this communication in error is requested to= immediately destroy the text of this communication without copying or f= urther dissemination. Your cooperation is appreciated. =20 From: Ron Galbraith [mailto:cfi@instructor.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 9:32 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins =20 There is an ES video that shows what happens when you stall an ES at ful= l aft CG. Spins immediately, takes 2.5 turns and 3000' to recover. Tes= t Pilot was one turn from bailing out. Install an AOA system, install = stall strips, practice flying at low speeds and learn what impending sta= lls feel like. The airframe gives you many indications that you are too = slow. Learn them. Fly safe. =20 =20 Ron Sent from my iPhone On Jan 8, 2013, at 8:34 AM, George Wehrung wrote: John,=20 =20 I would be interested in watching some of the videos on the ES in partic= ular if not the other airframes. Are they posted on the Internet by chan= ce, doubtful but I thought I'd ask. =20 =20 Sent from my iPhone On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:50, John Smith wrote: =46rom my perspective, the key phrase is spin resistance. =20 Having researched the NASA material and having also seen the Lancair vid= eos of actual flight testing, rightly or wrongly, I installed the wing c= uffs to the Legacy on the basis that they seemed to offer the opportunit= y to make it harder to get into trouble, but accepting that if pushed to= o far into a spin, then the aircraft may or may not be recoverable. So, = if one accepts the view of many which is that "as was", the aircraft was= not spin recoverable, there would only appear to be upside from install= ing the cuffs. The flaw is, of course, that if indeed the Legacy is spin= recoverable without wing cuffs, then the addition of the wing cuffs may= preclude spin recovery! =20 Unless someone goes to the trouble of spin testing the Legacy, or any ot= her type fitted with cuffs, one will never know whether spin recoveries = are possible under what flight and loading circumstances and, of course,= with or without wing cuffs. =20 Meanwhile, per my prior post on this, all I can say is that the albeit v= ery limited flight testing (straight and level, and continuous 30deg AoB= turns) in my Legacy fitted with the cuffs shows that there is plenty of= warning of the impending stall =E2=80=93 stall strips give the first "g= entle" warning", followed by the more severe intermittent "shuddering" a= s the centre section drops in and out of the stall (whilst the outboard = sections are still flying). =20 I'm happy to talk to anyone if they are interested to talk about this mo= re=E2=80=A6. numbers below, but please note time is UTC + 8!! =20 =20 Regards, John John N G Smith Tel / fax: +61-8-9385-8891 Mobile: +61-409-372-975 Email: john@jjts.net.au =20 From: Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013 2:25 AM To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins =20 Posted for "Peter Field" : Dear Lancair Drivers: I've been following the discussion on stalls and spins and I want to add some additional factual information purely for your personal consumption= and reflection. Attached are excerpts from 10 different 1980-90 NASA flight test final reports on a series of GA airplanes in which NASA evaluated t= he use of cuffs on leading edges to improve the behavior of the test airpla= ne approaching the stall. For various reasons the cuffs improved lateral control entering the stall, but had the adverse effect of destabilizing = the aircraft once a fully developed spin was achieved. Essentially, stall behavior was improved at the sacrifice of spin recovery. Cuffs on wing leading edges are an add on design fix, the more elegant solution is "washout," where the wing is twisted so the outer portions of the wing always operate at a lower angle of attack. To my knowledge, Lancair has never subjected any of their aircraft to a fully developed spin matrix complete with appropriate instrumentation an= d a spin recovery chute. There is no FAA requirement for them to do so - it= 's an Experimental Category airplane. Early on they may have lightly touch= ed on such testing; but I have never seen any documentation on a fully completed spin matrix, which would involve at least 160 spins at various cg's and lateral loadings. In my opinion, it would be highly risky to f= ool around much beyond the stall in any Lancair - there is no documentation = that indicates any of these airplanes can always be recovered from a one turn incipient phase spin or any fully developed spin. Being good at spin recovery isn't so much a matter of how skillful a pilot you are, it's a matter of how many spins you've experienced in airplanes known to be recoverable. Being familiar with the stall characteristics of your own airplane should be a matter of personal preference. =20 Best regards,=20 Pete Field (LNC2) USNTPS graduate & spin recovery instructor -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/Lis= t.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_09A8_01CDEDBB.DD2291F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= I have quietly been taking in all this stall/spin stuff.=C2=A0 It has gi= ven me a much deeper appreciation of our aircraft, and I only fly an ES.= =C2=A0 It also explains the weird look and silence Bob Jeffrey gave me o= n a ES demo flight in 2007 when I told him I wanted to do a power off st= all.=C2=A0 I have always practiced stalls in the various certified aircr= aft I have flown.

 

I did the stall= with Bob, not much notice, right wing quickly dropped, I recovered.=C2=A0= I think it was me=E2=80=A6might have been Bob.

 

Not doing anymore stalls in my ES.=C2=A0 Not afraid, just= smarter.

 = ;

Gordon

 

 

=  

Gordon H. Po= rter

Managing Partner

Trusted Wealth Advisors, LLP=

Registered Principal, Cambridge Investment Research= , Inc.

 

800-290-2632  717-757-4908  fax 717-843-0180=

 

= GHP@TrustedWealthAdvisors.com

 

Securities offered through Ca= mbridge Investment Research, Inc.. Member FINRA/SIPC. Advisory Services = offered through Cambridge Investment Research Advisors, Inc., a Register= ed Investment Advisor. Tax services are offered by Trusted Wealth Adviso= rs LLP. Trusted Wealth Advisors and the Cambridge Investment Research co= mpanies are unaffiliated entities.

=

Trading instructions sent via e-mail may not be honored.=   Please call our office, or Cambridge Investment Research trading = desk at 800-756-8115

, for all buy/sell orders.  Please be advised that communications= regarding trades in your account are for informational purposes only.&n= bsp; You should continue to rely on confirmations and statements receive= d from the custodian(s) of your assets.  The text of this communica= tion is confidential, and use by any person who is not the intended reci= pient is prohibited.  Any person who receives this communication in= error is requested to immediately destroy the text of this communicatio= n without copying or further dissemination.  Your cooperation is ap= preciated.

 

From:= = Ron Galbraith [mailto:cfi@instructor.net]
Sent: Tuesday, Janu= ary 08, 2013 9:32 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject:<= /b> Re: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins

 

There = is an ES video that shows what happens when you stall an ES at full aft = CG.  Spins immediately, takes 2.5 turns and 3000' to recover.  = ;Test Pilot was one turn from bailing out.   Install an AOA system,= install stall strips, practice flying at low speeds and learn what impe= nding stalls feel like. The airframe gives you many indications that you= are too slow.  Learn them.  Fly safe.  

 

Ron


Sent fro= m my iPhone


On Jan 8, 2013, at 8:34 AM, George Wehrung <gw5@me.com> wrote:

=

John, 

 

I would be inte= rested in watching some of the videos on the ES in particular if not the= other airframes. Are they posted on the Internet by chance, doubtful bu= t I thought I'd ask.

=  

 



Sent from my iPhone

<= /div>


On Jan= 8, 2013, at 15:50, John Smith <j= ohn@jjts.net.au> wrote:

From my perspective, the key phrase is spin resistance.

 

<= div>

Having researched the NASA material and having = also seen the Lancair videos of actual flight testing, rightly or wrongl= y, I installed the wing cuffs to the Legacy on the basis that they seeme= d to offer the opportunity to make it harder to get into trouble, but ac= cepting that if pushed too far into a spin, then the aircraft may or = may not be recoverable. So, if one accepts the view of many which is= that "as was", the aircraft was not spin recoverable, there w= ould only appear to be upside from installing the cuffs. The flaw is, of= course, that if indeed the Legacy is spin recoverable without wing cuff= s, then the addition of the wing cuffs may preclude spin rec= overy!

 

Unless someone goes to the trouble of = spin testing the Legacy, or any other type fitted with cuffs, one will n= ever know whether spin recoveries are possible under what flight and loa= ding circumstances and, of course, with or without wing cuffs.

 

Meanwhile, per my prior post on this, all I can say is= that the albeit very limited flight testing (straight and level, and co= ntinuous 30deg AoB turns) in my Legacy fitted with the cuffs shows that = there is plenty of warning of the impending stall =E2=80=93 stall strips= give the first "gentle" warning", followed by the more s= evere intermittent "shuddering" as the centre section drops in= and out of the stall (whilst the outboard sections are still flying).

 

=

I'm happy to talk to anyone if they are intere= sted to talk about this more=E2=80=A6. numbers below, but please note ti= me is UTC + 8!!

 = ;

 

Regards,

John


John N G Smith
Tel / fax:  &n= bsp; +61-8-9385-8891
Mobile:      +61-4= 09-372-975
Email:         john@jjts.net.au<= /p>

 

From: &= lt;marv@lancair.net>
Re= ply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Tuesday, 8 January= 2013 2:25 AM
To: <lml>
Subject: [LML] Re: Sta= lls & Spins

 



Post= ed for "Peter Field" <pfield.avn@gmail.com>:

Dear Lancair Drivers:


I've been following the discussion on stalls and spins and I want t= o add
some additional factual information purely for your personal co= nsumption and
reflection.  Attached are excerpts from 10 di= fferent 1980-90 NASA flight
test final reports on a series of GA airp= lanes in which NASA evaluated the
use of cuffs on leading edges to im= prove the behavior of the test airplane
approaching the stall. &= nbsp;For various reasons the cuffs improved lateral
control entering = the stall, but had the adverse effect of destabilizing the
aircraft o= nce a fully developed spin was achieved.  Essentially, stallbehavior was improved at the sacrifice of spin recovery.  Cu= ffs on wing
leading edges are an add on design fix, the more elegant = solution is
"washout," where the wing is twisted so the out= er portions of the wing
always operate at a lower angle of attack.


To my knowledge, Lancair has never subjected any of their a= ircraft to a
fully developed spin matrix complete with appropriate in= strumentation and a
spin recovery chute.  There is no FAA r= equirement for them to do so - it's
an Experimental Category airplane= =2E  Early on they may have lightly touched
on such testing= ; but I have never seen any documentation on a fully
completed spin m= atrix, which would involve at least 160 spins at various
cg's and lat= eral loadings.  In my opinion, it would be highly risky to foo= l
around much beyond the stall in any Lancair - there is no documenta= tion that
indicates any of these airplanes can always be recovered fr= om a one turn
incipient phase spin or any fully developed spin. =  Being good at spin
recovery isn't so much a matter of how skill= ful a pilot you are, it's a
matter of how many spins you've experienc= ed in airplanes known to be
recoverable.  Being familiar wi= th the stall characteristics of your own
airplane should be a matter = of personal preference.  



Best regards,
Pete Field (LNC2)

USNTPS graduate & spin recovery instructor=


-- For arch= ives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

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