X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:08:55 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm6-vm8.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.136.218.199] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with SMTP id 6001648 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 16:59:21 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.136.218.199; envelope-from=brucewhitaker67877@yahoo.com Received: from [98.137.12.55] by nm6.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jan 2013 21:58:45 -0000 Received: from [98.137.12.211] by tm15.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jan 2013 21:58:45 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jan 2013 21:58:45 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 757609.27522.bm@omp1019.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 66794 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2013 21:58:45 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nSiBppFhH7tOZ8JQdmCp9dGboyFrlOd/cVAdJ5TSOewzmjaXLEPIUIqRnalRTY44EqlPskFyOv+sGEmU7ZnJqk0PLMeGu2Bcn0QTQnQivKryKXXh6PqnXC9Z3ghs5REXNg5R1DK3EkdeFtuybgC55bgg9HS/QiA9t85JlR7c7wk=; X-YMail-OSG: RI0hVO0VM1lMBYri9Y9lRzGJU8Ype_LYJAltlXQAKjr9tES Lzn89D2Oofuls_tLrzkOjJmAlI4ozxg7rZlde4l1xj.bqevPziAcaRXNNbr6 nLWk_DwXQIDp_EfQeNg8oBNaLz1q9QVopvJ8FLseZPtcD.xgKxdL6pZ2JiH0 MSFEX7uPEOldUTg_E0.OBUtKtaJdxqTqqJqrLOY3ZmDDmlQBrrMcZeIeMpVJ heFBQSekKbjWqfv8Or_EC8EZz.tPtKd0aPUJhDjfzb3toKBMNtPl5QbWJucl w19UKjxx9gSY8iG.ZuB9VvNuFwmzb8U312FfFT.BTyehwRu7VX8QAhxNl99D GRT8mbQMjhZAzBlWv33CjWyyDXQG5J7Ro.oC_aCwF78dZ8nhW5nWpYrezAlv 8MWo936VQNO3WjQAmKVCo2HOelqU8drf6RlbVaA4QPhFWsLyXmhHUwMCVyi7 b_2prRtjB0WLFFX7NMshEYNtcXL4TGz2H.YL2YiNFoL4z2fjm55Lq6uXr4Lf ZMAyX0LAWTPWjYD88KfbCQ6O.P6mcRRgjVRtLZCS8p9vSFT_ufDtaxsm2zkz LCHdX9lv9NiVctlUyqNaFrc6vC8UefqI7LhxoJ3luhQ-- Received: from [204.120.196.53] by web163806.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 13:58:45 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,R2VvcmdlLAoKSGVyZSBpcyBhbm90aGVyIHZpZGVvIHRoYXQgc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgc21hcnQgZmVsbGVycyBvdXQgaGVyZSB0aGluayBtYXkgZGVtb25zdHJhdGUgZ3lyb3Njb3BpYyBmb3JjZXMgb24gdGhlIGFpcnBsYW5lLgpUaGUgbG9uZ2VyIGFybSBvZiB0aGUgdHVyYmluZSBwcm9wZWxsZXIsIGFjdGluZyBhcyBhIGd5cm8sIGlzIHRob3VnaHQgdG8gY2F1c2UgYW4gdW5jb250cm9sbGFibGUgY29uZGl0aW9uLsKgIFNpbWlsYXIgZ2VvbWV0cnkgdG8gYSB0dXJiaW5lIExJVi4KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlbGUBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.130.494 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1357682325.60123.YahooMailNeo@web163806.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 13:58:45 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Whitaker Reply-To: Bruce Whitaker Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="547783885-511852361-1357682325=:60123" --547783885-511852361-1357682325=:60123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George,=0A=0AHere is another video that some of the smart fellers out here = think may demonstrate gyroscopic forces on the airplane.=0AThe longer arm o= f the turbine propeller, acting as a gyro, is thought to cause an uncontrol= lable condition.=A0 Similar geometry to a turbine LIV.=0Ahttp://www.livelea= k.com/view?i=3Dbbe_1250712882=0A=0ABruce=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________= ____________=0A From: George Wehrung =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.n= et =0ASent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 1:10 PM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Stalls & = Spins=0A =0A=0ASkip,=0A=0AThank you for the video and explanation. I too wa= s a Naval Aviation Safety Officer, T-34C flight instructor, functional chec= k pilot, and taught the high and low out-of-control syllabi to new instruct= ors.=0A=0ASo although, I am familiar with spins, progressive spins, spirals= (had a few of those because of bad elevator/aileron rigging), high and low= altitude departures I have no interest in spinning our Lancair. =A0I am in= terested in slow flighting and learning where and what the stall indication= s are for two purposes. =A0The first being to recognize the initial indicat= ions of stall onset and recovery for this airframe. =A0Secondly, is to cali= brate the AOA system as we switched over from the separate AOA computer to = the built in system within the Advanced Flight Deck 4000S. =A0I need to re-= plumb the AOA tubing from the old computer to the advanced deck, then a cal= ibration flight will be in order. =A0Once this is done and I have some data= I will know the specific envelope to keep this plane happy.=0A=0AIn the me= an time I am trying to learn as much as I can about this airframe from othe= rs who may have gone before me and to also have as accurate a POH as possib= le since I am gone and can't fly the plane till spring time.=0A=0AThanks ag= ain,=0A=0AGeorge=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Jan 8, 2013, at 8:29 PM, Skip Sl= ater wrote:=0A=0AGeorge,=0A>=A0=A0 Attached is the= ES spin video Ron was =0Atalking about.=A0=A0When I first saw it=A0several= years=A0ago, =0AI=A0saved it.=A0=0A>=A0=A0 The story behind the clip is th= at a =0Abuilder hired an ex-Air Force fighter pilot to do his Phase 1 testi= ng for =0Ahim.=A0 I swapped e-mails with=A0the pilot=A0after this came out = and =0Agot the full story.=A0 This guy took testing seriously, mapping out = planned =0Amaneuvers for each flight, wearing a helmet and parachute and vi= deotaping every =0Aflight.=A0 One of the things he did was to perform a ser= ies of stall tests at =0Aprogressively further aft CG's, I assume by adding= ballast to the back of the =0Aplane, as he always flew alone..=A0 Doing sp= ins was not part of his test =0Aplan.=A0 During the stall in the video, his= CG was fairly well aft and as you =0Acan see, the=A0plane unexpectedly and= abruptly=A0departed to the =0Aleft.=A0 He told me that when he applied=A0r= ecovery controls, =0Athe=A0spin actually tightened at first but after nearl= y three turns and =0Aconsiderable loss of altitude, it did recover.=A0 Had = this happened at =0Apattern altitude, recovery would have been impossible.= =A0 At that point he =0Astopped doing any further stall testing and he told= me that his recommendation =0Awas that spins be a prohibited maneuver in t= he ES.=0A>=A0=A0 I got to do a lot of spins in prop and =0Ajet trainers in = the Navy and would never even consider trying on in my ES.=A0 =0AI did appr= oaches to stalls to calibrate my AOA (something I feel should be an =0Aesse= ntial part of any experimental's instrument panel), but have not done any = =0Asince, as I can't even get close to stall speed now without the aural wa= rning =0Athe AOA generates and would have to ignore it to do so.=0A>=A0=A0 = I'm with Jeff and LOBO on this subject =0A- I don't recommend intentional s= talls in Lancairs.=A0 Because each is built =0Aa little differently, it's p= robable that each would handle a little differently =0Aat high AOA.=A0 And = as has been pointed out, the most likely place for a =0Astall is in the tra= ffic pattern and if you depart controlled flight there, all =0Athe training= or practice=A0in the world isn't going to help you.=0A>=A0=A0 Skip Slater= =0A>=A0=A0 N540ES=A0=A0=A0 --=0A>For archives and unsub http:= //mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=0A> --547783885-511852361-1357682325=:60123 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
George,
Here is another video that some of the smart fellers out here think m= ay demonstrate gyroscopic forces on the airplane.
The longer arm of the = turbine propeller, acting as a gyro, is thought to cause an uncontrollable = condition.  Similar geometry to a turbine LIV.
http://www.liveleak.= com/view?i=3Dbbe_1250712882

Bruce


From: George Wehrung <gw5@me.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 1:1= 0 PM
Subject: [LML] Re= : Stalls & Spins

=0A
Skip,
Thank you for the video and explanation. I too was a Naval Avi= ation Safety Officer, T-34C flight instructor, functional check pilot, and = taught the high and low out-of-control syllabi to new instructors.

So although, I am familiar with spins, progressive spins, = spirals (had a few of those because of bad elevator/aileron rigging), high = and low altitude departures I have no interest in spinning our Lancair. &nb= sp;I am interested in slow flighting and learning where and what the stall = indications are for two purposes.  The first being to recognize the in= itial indications of stall onset and recovery for this airframe.  Seco= ndly, is to calibrate the AOA system as we switched over from the separate = AOA computer to the built in system within the Advanced Flight Deck 4000S. =  I need to re-plumb the AOA tubing from the old computer to the advanced deck, then a calibration flight will be i= n order.  Once this is done and I have some data I will know the speci= fic envelope to keep this plane happy.

In the mean= time I am trying to learn as much as I can about this airframe from others= who may have gone before me and to also have as accurate a POH as possible= since I am gone and can't fly the plane till spring time.

Thanks again,

George

=





<= div>On Jan 8, 2013, at 8:29 PM, Skip Slater <skipslater@verizon.net> wrote:

=0A=0A =0A = =0A
=0A
George,
=0A
   A= ttached is the ES spin video Ron was =0Atalking about.  When I fi= rst saw it several years ago, =0AI saved it. 
=0A
   The story behind the clip is that a =0Abuilder hired an= ex-Air Force fighter pilot to do his Phase 1 testing for =0Ahim.  I s= wapped e-mails with the pilot after this came out and =0Agot the = full story.  This guy took testing seriously, mapping out planned =0Am= aneuvers for each flight, wearing a helmet and parachute and videotaping ev= ery =0Aflight.  One of the things he did was to perform a series of st= all tests at =0Aprogressively further aft CG's, I assume by adding ballast = to the back of the =0Aplane, as he always flew alone..  Doing spins wa= s not part of his test =0Aplan.  During the stall in the video, his CG= was fairly well aft and as you =0Acan see, the plane unexpectedly and= abruptly departed to the =0Aleft.  He told me that when he appli= ed recovery controls, =0Athe spin actually tightened at first but= after nearly three turns and =0Aconsiderable loss of altitude, it did reco= ver.  Had this happened at =0Apattern altitude, recovery would have be= en impossible.  At that point he =0Astopped doing any further stall te= sting and he told me that his recommendation =0Awas that spins be a prohibi= ted maneuver in the ES.
=0A
   I got to do a lot of spins in prop and =0Ajet trainers in the= Navy and would never even consider trying on in my ES.  =0AI did appr= oaches to stalls to calibrate my AOA (something I feel should be an =0Aesse= ntial part of any experimental's instrument panel), but have not done any = =0Asince, as I can't even get close to stall speed now without the aural wa= rning =0Athe AOA generates and would have to ignore it to do so.=0A
   I'm with Jeff and LO= BO on this subject =0A- I don't recommend intentional stalls in Lancairs.&n= bsp; Because each is built =0Aa little differently, it's probable that each= would handle a little differently =0Aat high AOA.  And as has been po= inted out, the most likely place for a =0Astall is in the traffic pattern a= nd if you depart controlled flight there, all =0Athe training or practice&n= bsp;in the world isn't going to help you.
=0A
   Skip Slater
=0A
   N540ES    =0A
=0A<ES spin.mpeg>--
For archives and unsub htt= p://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html


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