X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 09:37:31 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.59.227] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5998804 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Jan 2013 08:25:09 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.59.227; envelope-from=rob@robmurawski.com Received: from omta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.60]) by qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id l1E81k0031HzFnQ5C1Qac7; Mon, 07 Jan 2013 13:24:34 +0000 Received: from wintermute.rob-home.local. ([76.120.176.49]) by omta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id l1Qa1k00N14KV5G3a1QanC; Mon, 07 Jan 2013 13:24:34 +0000 Received: from LAPSE (wintermute.rob-home.local [192.168.0.5]) by wintermute.rob-home.local. (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id r07DOHK9011727 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:24:19 -0500 From: "Rob Murawski" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: lml Stalls X-Original-Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:24:36 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <001c01cdecda$58395370$08abfa50$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01CDECB0.6F634B70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac3sXr50XDc5OIGdTRezdKbvgpVPAQAeyayw Content-Language: en-us X-boxedgarlic-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-ID: r07DOHK9011727 X-boxedgarlic-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-boxedgarlic-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.214, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00, TVD_RCVD_SINGLE 1.21) X-boxedgarlic-MailScanner-From: rob@robmurawski.com MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1358169862.40781@YMyOm+0rXgqZGmLzF9IKIg This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01CDECB0.6F634B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I have not installed it yet, I am planning on installing this on = my 360. I don=E2=80=99t expect there to be any issue because it fits in = the D-section in front of the spar and in front of the fuel tank. The = installation instructions give the exact location for each different = aircraft type. =20 http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Support/AOAsupport/AOA-application= data.html =20 =20 =20 -Rob =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = N20087 Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:40 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: lml Stalls =20 Folks=20 =20 Has anybody had success with the aoa pro on a 360/320 with outboard wing = tanks? I have removable wing caps and was wondering if the orifices = could be installed in it (top And bottom) =20 Thanks =20 Tom Sent from my iPad On Jan 6, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Jack Morgan wrote: =20 Charley, =20 All good on your comments. For those who interpreted my remarks as = stating that all high performance aircraft (including the IV) are = untested for deep stalls or slow flight please take the below to heart. = The IV has had similar testing. =20 The point I was trying to make related to purposely doing deep stalls as = part of an ongoing training syllabus. Deep stalls in high performance = aircraft can easily lead to a roll that goes past wings vertical. Most = pilots I have introduced to aerobatics initially get disoriented when = the wings go past vertical and instinctively pull rather than relax = pressure or push which insures a spin. As has been clearly stated in the = list by Charlie K ,LOBO, and others...... slow flight and stall onset = are included in a proper training syllabus. =20 Aerobatic airplanes are in varying degrees a pleasure to fly from zero = airspeed on up. The entire envelope can be experienced and precision can = be achieved throughout which is part of the reward. High performance = aircraft generally don't offer a rewarding feel or precision response = when stalled which is an additional reason to avoid deep stalls as each = one is an adventure. =20 Hope this clears the fog a bit. =20 Jack Morgan =20 From: Charles Brown Subject: Re: [LML] Stalls Date: January 5, 2013 11:19:58 AM EST To: lml@lancaironline.net =20 Jack, =20 On the contrary, all airliners are designed to FAR Part 25 and if you = google FAR 25.201 (stall demonstration) and 25.203 (stall = characteristics) you will find that they have to be designed and = demonstrated to stall tamely, clean and dirty, straight ahead and in 30 = deg bank. I've done stalls in a 737-300 during flight test at Boeing, = and it's tame. =20 =20 Furthermore, airliners and certainly the Legacy are designed to go slow = as well as fast, through the use of slotted flaps (and, on airliners, = leading edge slats). It's no coincidence that the stall speed of a = Legacy is 59kt, Greg Cole went to some trouble to design those = beautiful, highly effective slotted, cambered flaps and we pay a cruise = speed penalty for those big ugly flap hinge brackets. But with stall = speed below 70kt, you can run your instrument approach at 90kt and use = the lowest minimums (Cat A) on the chart. =20 What gives, guys? Forget the inadvertant stall and let's suppose your = engine quits over rocky or forested terrain. The best available open = area is too short but every knot you can peel off your approach speed = increases your chance of survival. Knowing and trusting your plane down = to Vstall could easily save your life. =20 Charley =20 On Jan 4, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Jack Morgan wrote: =20 Following the below reasoning.... all of the current swept wing = airliners and business jets have a problem with "very bad design"!!! I = hope all the Lancair drivers out there will ignore those who wish that = an airplane could be designed to go really fast and really slow in the = same design. Particularly the IV needs to be flown with the respect that = a high performance airplane demands. It is well known how to handle high = performance aircraft and doing deep stalls is not on that list. LOBO is = your best source of what our best practices are based on experience = gained to date for all the Lancair designs. =20 If you want to improve your chances of getting out of a deep stall in a = IV go get a hundred hours of aerobatic training. That will also convince = you not to stall a IV in the first place! =20 Jack Morgan =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01CDECB0.6F634B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

While I have not installed it yet, I am planning on installing this = on my 360.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t expect there to be any issue because it = fits in the D-section in front of the spar and in front of the fuel = tank.=C2=A0 The installation instructions give the exact location for = each different aircraft type.

 

http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Support/AOAsupp= ort/AOA-applicationdata.html

 

 

 

-Rob

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = N20087
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:40 = PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: lml = Stalls

 

Folks 

 

Has anybody had success with the aoa pro on a 360/320 = with outboard wing tanks?  I have removable wing caps and was = wondering if the orifices could be installed in it (top And = bottom)

 

Thanks

 

Tom

Sent from my = iPad


On Jan 6, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Jack = Morgan <jmorgan1023@comcast.net> = wrote:

 

Charley,

 

All good on your comments. For those who interpreted = my remarks as stating that all high performance aircraft (including the = IV) are untested for deep stalls or slow flight please take the below to = heart. The IV has had similar testing.

 

The point I was trying to make related to purposely = doing deep stalls as part of an ongoing training syllabus. Deep stalls = in high performance aircraft can easily lead to a roll that goes past = wings vertical. Most pilots I have introduced to aerobatics initially = get disoriented when the wings go past vertical and instinctively pull = rather than relax pressure or push which insures a spin. As has been = clearly stated in the list by Charlie K ,LOBO, and others...... slow = flight and stall onset are included in a proper training = syllabus.

 

Aerobatic airplanes are in varying degrees a pleasure = to fly from zero airspeed on up. The entire envelope can be experienced = and precision can be achieved throughout which is part of the reward. = High performance aircraft generally don't offer a rewarding feel or = precision response when stalled which is an additional reason to avoid = deep stalls as each one is an adventure.

 

Hope this clears the fog a = bit.

 

Jack Morgan

 

From: Charles = Brown <browncc1@verizon.net><= span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>

Subject: Re: = [LML] Stalls

Date: January = 5, 2013 11:19:58 AM EST

To: lml@lancaironline.net

 

Jack,

 

On the contrary, all = airliners are designed to FAR Part 25 and if you google FAR 25.201 = (stall demonstration) and 25.203 (stall characteristics) you will = find that they have to be designed and demonstrated to stall tamely, = clean and dirty, straight ahead and in 30 deg bank.  I've done = stalls in a 737-300 during flight test at Boeing, and it's tame. =  

 

Furthermore, airliners and = certainly the Legacy are designed to go slow as well as fast, =  through the use of slotted flaps (and, on airliners, leading edge = slats).  It's no coincidence that the stall speed of a Legacy is = 59kt, Greg Cole went to some trouble to design those beautiful, highly = effective slotted, cambered flaps and we pay a cruise speed penalty for = those big ugly flap hinge brackets.  But with stall speed below = 70kt, you can run your instrument approach at 90kt and use the lowest = minimums (Cat A) on the chart.

 

What gives, guys? =  Forget the inadvertant stall and let's suppose your engine quits = over rocky or forested terrain.  The best available open area is = too short but every knot you can peel off your approach speed increases = your chance of survival.  Knowing and trusting your plane down to = Vstall could easily save your life.

 

Charley

<= /div>

 

On = Jan 4, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Jack Morgan = wrote:

 

Following the below = reasoning.... all of the current swept wing airliners and business jets = have a problem with "very bad design"!!! I hope all the = Lancair drivers out there will ignore those who wish that an airplane = could be designed to go really fast and really slow in the same design. = Particularly the IV needs to be flown with the respect that a high = performance airplane demands. It is well known how to handle high = performance aircraft and doing deep stalls is not on that list. LOBO is = your best source of what our best practices are based on experience = gained to date for all the Lancair designs.

 

If you want to improve your = chances of getting out of a deep stall in a IV go get a hundred hours of = aerobatic training. That will also convince you not to stall a IV in the = first place!

 

Jack = Morgan

 

 

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