X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:39:52 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm17-vm0.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.137.177.224] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with SMTP id 5998149 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:12:32 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.137.177.224; envelope-from=n20087@yahoo.com Received: from [98.137.12.58] by nm17.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 22:11:57 -0000 Received: from [98.136.185.204] by tm3.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 22:11:57 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp113-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 22:11:57 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 935673.77037.bm@smtp113-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: PZb3GN0VM1ngXh1HN5ywAU9Q9gnOS2zRGYsACX9EtzU83Wk kTBmwITJuBS1IFELCCod3sz4TY6qpaZW.cw2pHlrtIgNjK19gK5.wKSFWm6x IGNgii7Vmetfhg3S5tkIUlMvAwSK4pgGAkmfHTGMton2KGYY0bLyWQ8ZmWrj WL5sEp42pLpfJQeGNKPOBXRJ0UViAgREKtszPxj7tZOBNRDnr66LlJyZsRE_ UTldOWfWtlgrRYQ1w8.dA.FQyXnF2Da9lUN_nQ_ZNNiDDC0fwDdQydmstMxR M23YaKN0LKLzVyr7WinEuZRH9bYBoicfNlU6t9B_WoUQ4ISeD6F_BqykNo22 mXFOw9SdYRs.G9WRgoPjSmKuUQbj7smrpc7DjyxZeeVe7.UvuLrXyAy.rkii JJYX4T2JU0gVGf3RRwoDkvTIoPvpFcZkHmt2OYZqwQst1c2E_hFr8LzDN8iy qiUx.SIc- X-Yahoo-SMTP: NQQt3c2swBAKSrExoA1eZuT7_w-- Received: from [192.168.1.103] (n20087@98.185.56.123 with xymcookie) by smtp113-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Jan 2013 14:11:57 -0800 PST References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-13324608-6768-4364-A7D4-BDA9B8174914 X-Original-Message-Id: <2852DB2E-DCBE-4296-9CBC-1987B3ACEE8E@yahoo.com> X-Original-Cc: "lml@lancaironline.net" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B176) From: N20087 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: lml Stalls X-Original-Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 17:11:57 -0500 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-13324608-6768-4364-A7D4-BDA9B8174914 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Folks=20 Has anybody had success with the aoa pro on a 360/320 with outboard wing tan= ks? I have removable wing caps and was wondering if the orifices could be i= nstalled in it (top And bottom) Thanks Tom Sent from my iPad On Jan 6, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Jack Morgan wrote: >=20 > Charley, >=20 > All good on your comments. For those who interpreted my remarks as stating= that all high performance aircraft (including the IV) are untested for deep= stalls or slow flight please take the below to heart. The IV has had simila= r testing. >=20 > The point I was trying to make related to purposely doing deep stalls as p= art of an ongoing training syllabus. Deep stalls in high performance aircraf= t can easily lead to a roll that goes past wings vertical. Most pilots I hav= e introduced to aerobatics initially get disoriented when the wings go past v= ertical and instinctively pull rather than relax pressure or push which insu= res a spin. As has been clearly stated in the list by Charlie K ,LOBO, and o= thers...... slow flight and stall onset are included in a proper training sy= llabus. >=20 > Aerobatic airplanes are in varying degrees a pleasure to fly from zero air= speed on up. The entire envelope can be experienced and precision can be ach= ieved throughout which is part of the reward. High performance aircraft gene= rally don't offer a rewarding feel or precision response when stalled which i= s an additional reason to avoid deep stalls as each one is an adventure. >=20 > Hope this clears the fog a bit. >=20 > Jack Morgan >=20 >> From: Charles Brown >> Subject: Re: [LML] Stalls >> Date: January 5, 2013 11:19:58 AM EST >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >>=20 >>=20 >> Jack, >>=20 >> On the contrary, all airliners are designed to FAR Part 25 and if you goo= gle FAR 25.201 (stall demonstration) and 25.203 (stall characteristics) you w= ill find that they have to be designed and demonstrated to stall tamely, cle= an and dirty, straight ahead and in 30 deg bank. I've done stalls in a 737-= 300 during flight test at Boeing, and it's tame. =20 >>=20 >> Furthermore, airliners and certainly the Legacy are designed to go slow a= s well as fast, through the use of slotted flaps (and, on airliners, leadin= g edge slats). It's no coincidence that the stall speed of a Legacy is 59kt= , Greg Cole went to some trouble to design those beautiful, highly effective= slotted, cambered flaps and we pay a cruise speed penalty for those big ugl= y flap hinge brackets. But with stall speed below 70kt, you can run your in= strument approach at 90kt and use the lowest minimums (Cat A) on the chart. >>=20 >> What gives, guys? Forget the inadvertant stall and let's suppose your en= gine quits over rocky or forested terrain. The best available open area is t= oo short but every knot you can peel off your approach speed increases your c= hance of survival. Knowing and trusting your plane down to Vstall could eas= ily save your life. >>=20 >> Charley >>=20 >> On Jan 4, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Jack Morgan wrote: >>=20 >> Following the below reasoning.... all of the current swept wing airliners= and business jets have a problem with "very bad design"!!! I hope all the L= ancair drivers out there will ignore those who wish that an airplane could b= e designed to go really fast and really slow in the same design. Particularl= y the IV needs to be flown with the respect that a high performance airplane= demands. It is well known how to handle high performance aircraft and doing= deep stalls is not on that list. LOBO is your best source of what our best p= ractices are based on experience gained to date for all the Lancair designs.= >>=20 >> If you want to improve your chances of getting out of a deep stall in a I= V go get a hundred hours of aerobatic training. That will also convince you n= ot to stall a IV in the first place! >>=20 >> Jack Morgan >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-13324608-6768-4364-A7D4-BDA9B8174914 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Folks 

=
Has anybody had success with the aoa pro on a 360/320 with outboa= rd wing tanks?  I have removable wing caps and was wondering if the ori= fices could be installed in it (top And bottom)

Tha= nks

Tom

Sent from my iPad

On J= an 6, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Jack Morgan <jmorgan1023@comcast.net> wrote:


Charley,

All= good on your comments. For those who interpreted my remarks as stating that= all high performance aircraft (including the IV) are untested for deep stal= ls or slow flight please take the below to heart. The IV has had similar tes= ting.

The point I was trying to make related to pur= posely doing deep stalls as part of an ongoing training syllabus. Deep stall= s in high performance aircraft can easily lead to a roll that goes past wing= s vertical. Most pilots I have introduced to aerobatics initially get disori= ented when the wings go past vertical and instinctively pull rather than rel= ax pressure or push which insures a spin. As has been clearly stated in the l= ist by Charlie K ,LOBO, and others...... slow flight and stall onset are inc= luded in a proper training syllabus.

Aerobatic airp= lanes are in varying degrees a pleasure to fly from zero airspeed on up. The= entire envelope can be experienced and precision can be achieved throughout= which is part of the reward. High performance aircraft generally don't offe= r a rewarding feel or precision response when stalled which is an additional= reason to avoid deep stalls as each one is an adventure.

Hope this clears the fog a bit.

Jack Morgan<= /div>

 Charles Brown <<= a href=3D"mailto:browncc1@verizon.net" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration= : underline; ">browncc1@verizon.net>
Subject: <= /span>Re: [LM= L] Stalls
Date: January 5, 2013 11:19:58 AM EST


= Jack,

On the contrary, all airliners are designed t= o FAR Part 25 and if you google FAR 25.201 (stall demonstration) and 25.203 (= stall characteristics) you will find that they have to be designed and d= emonstrated to stall tamely, clean and dirty, straight ahead and in 30 deg b= ank.  I've done stalls in a 737-300 during flight test at Boeing, and i= t's tame.  

Furthermore, airliners and certain= ly the Legacy are designed to go slow as well as fast,  through the use= of slotted flaps (and, on airliners, leading edge slats).  It's no coi= ncidence that the stall speed of a Legacy is 59kt, Greg Cole went to some tr= ouble to design those beautiful, highly effective slotted, cambered flaps an= d we pay a cruise speed penalty for those big ugly flap hinge brackets. &nbs= p;But with stall speed below 70kt, you can run your instrument approach at 9= 0kt and use the lowest minimums (Cat A) on the chart.

What gives, guys?  Forget the inadvertant stall and let's suppose yo= ur engine quits over rocky or forested terrain.  The best available ope= n area is too short but every knot you can peel off your approach speed incr= eases your chance of survival.  Knowing and trusting your plane down to= Vstall could easily save your life.

Charley
<= br>
On Jan 4, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Jack Morgan wrote:

Following the below r= easoning.... all of the current swept wing airliners and business jets have a= problem with "very bad design"!!! I hope all the Lancair drivers out there w= ill ignore those who wish that an airplane could be designed to go really fa= st and really slow in the same design. Particularly the IV needs to be flown= with the respect that a high performance airplane demands. It is well known= how to handle high performance aircraft and doing deep stalls is not on tha= t list. LOBO is your best source of what our best practices are based on exp= erience gained to date for all the Lancair designs.

If yo= u want to improve your chances of getting out of a deep stall in a IV go get= a hundred hours of aerobatic training. That will also convince you not to s= tall a IV in the first place!

Jack Morgan


= --Apple-Mail-13324608-6768-4364-A7D4-BDA9B8174914--