X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:51:48 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.163] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5997866 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:38:38 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.163; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.142]) by imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 4366B3800006C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mna001c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mna001.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.106.1]) by mtaomg-da06.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 0C029E000081 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:38:04 -0500 (EST) References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CFBA3AF2EBD061_2670_A622C_webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 37276-STANDARD Received: from 24.107.65.42 by webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com (205.188.103.149) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:38:02 -0500 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CFBA3AF2ADEC87-2670-3F488@webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [24.107.65.42] X-Original-Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:38:03 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:394427968:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338e50e99a5c4f51 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CFBA3AF2EBD061_2670_A622C_webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" These cuffs are the result of NASA testing back in the 80's and now found o= n many newer certified designs. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: John Smith To: lml Sent: Sun, Jan 6, 2013 9:20 am Subject: [LML] Re: stalls I don't know how widely advertised the Legacy wing cuffs are, but following= Lancair's testing of wing cuffs on their company fixed gear Legacy a few y= ears ago, I offered to be the guinea pig for testing the wing cuffs on an R= G. I retrofitted wing cuffs to a year or so ago. Testing was done initially= with the cuffs "taped on", but the outcome was fantastic so fitted them pe= rmanently. The results can be summarised as:- Stall speeds, clean and dirty, increased by about 1kt (if that) No measurable differences in TAS for given PA / rpm / MAP / fuel flow refer= ences Stall strips continued to provide early warning of impending stall As the centre section stalls (outboard sections with wing cuffs still flyin= g), serious airframe vibration follows due dirty air flowing over empennage= leaving one in no doubt that the wing is about to stop flying=E2=80=A6 but= all that happens is that the nose drops ever so slightly, buffeting stops = and wing unstalls. No wing drop. Reducing airspeed in continuous 30deg AoB turns and approaching the stall = =E2=80=93 same outcome; there is no tendency for wing drop; can fly round a= nd around on the stall and the aircraft drops in and out of the stall; aile= rons are responsive throughout Despite the above, I have no desire to routinely fly to the stall, but its = comforting to know that should I or anyone else flying XTZ screw up, one wo= uld have to be seriously distracted to not realise that the aircraft is not= "comfortable". And BTW=E2=80=A6 I wouldn't dare do the above without a ser= iously experienced pilot alongside me! I think Greg Cole and Lancair have done a wonderful job designing and produ= cing these wing cuffs for the Legacy. I encourage any owner of these and other high performance aircraft without = wing cuffs fitted to consider them. They don't, as far as I understand, nec= essarily make an aircraft "spin proof", but in the case of the Legacy, they= would seem to provide an additional margin for error. Attached a few pics. If anyone wants more info, I'd be happy to expand on my experience. Regards, John =20 John N G Smith Tel / fax: +61-8-9385-8891 Mobile: +61-409-372-975 Email: john@jjts.net.au From: "pete@leapfrogventures.com" Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Sunday, 6 January 2013 9:34 PM To: Subject: [LML] Re: stalls IMHO, this discussion about practicing stalls/spins so you can learn how to= recover from them is a bit nuts. The VAST majority of stall/spins occur i= n the pattern, where there is not enough altitude to recover, no matter how= skilled you are. I believe a big portion of the remainder are related to= autopilot stalls. =20 I do think there are two silver bullets that can prevent almost all stalls/= spins. =20 First, most all of us have Sorcerer autopilots. Set the minimum airspeed o= n the Sorcerer to just under your best glide speed. For my ES-P, I use 95 = knots. That saves me from the autopilot induced stalls. It also makes set= ting best glide in engine out easy =E2=80=93 just do a direct to on the Gar= min, and the autopilot will turn me in the correct direction, hold altitude= until my airspeed bleeds off to 95, then maintain my airspeed at 95 in the= descent. While all this is going on, I can focus on trying to get the eng= ine restarted. =20 Second, buy, install, and calibrate an AOA. My Advanced AOA did not requir= e me to do a stall to calibrate it. I followed the directions, and bitchin= g betty starts yelling at me at around 70 knots in the flare, which is exac= tly the margin that it was designed to have. She has already saved me once= when a distraction got me going a bit slow on a base leg. She yells, I pu= sh. The only hard part was learning to ignore her when flaring, but that i= s another discussion that relates to growing up with too many sisters. =20 Let=E2=80=99s stop pretending that our superior pilot skills will always sa= ve us. Even the best of us get distracted and make mistakes. It is time w= e all invest in the technology that is already there to save our asses when= we do something stupid and stop claiming we are better pilots than everyon= e else because we fly high performance aircraft. =20 Sorry if this sounded like a rant. =20 Pete =20 From: Jarrett Johnson [mailto:hjjohnson@sasktel.net]=20 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls =20 =E2=80=9C there is no single silver bullet to answer it=E2=80=9D =20 =20 -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html =20 ----------MB_8CFBA3AF2EBD061_2670_A622C_webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
These cuffs are the result of NASA testing back in the 80's = and now found on many newer certified designs.
 
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: John Smith <john@jjts.net.au>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Jan 6, 2013 9:20 am
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

I don't know how widely advertised the Legacy wing cuffs are, but foll= owing Lancair's testing of wing cuffs on their company fixed gear Legacy a = few years ago, I offered to be the guinea pig for testing the wing cuffs on= an RG. I retrofitted wing cuffs to a year or so ago. Testing was done init= ially with the cuffs "taped on", but the outcome was fantastic so fitted th= em permanently. The results can be summarised as:-
  • Stall speeds, clean and dirty, increased by about 1kt (if that)
  • No measurable differences in TAS for given PA / rpm / MAP / fuel flow = references
  • Stall strips continued to provide early warning of impen= ding stall
  • As the centre section stalls (outboard sections with win= g cuffs still flying), serious airframe vibration follows due dirty air flo= wing over empennage leaving one in no doubt that the wing is about to stop = flying=E2=80=A6 but all that happens is that the nose drops ever so slightl= y, buffeting stops and wing unstalls. No wing drop.
  • Reducing airspe= ed in continuous 30deg AoB turns and approaching the stall =E2=80=93 same o= utcome; there is no tendency for wing drop; can fly round and around on the= stall and the aircraft drops in and out of the stall; ailerons are respons= ive throughout
Despite the above, I have no desire to routinely fly to the stall, but= its comforting to know that should I or anyone else flying XTZ screw up, o= ne would have to be seriously distracted to not realise that the aircraft i= s not "comfortable". And BTW=E2=80=A6 I wouldn't dare do the above without = a seriously experienced pilot alongside me!

I think Greg Cole and Lancair have done a wonderful job designing and = producing these wing cuffs for the Legacy.

I encourage any owner of these and other high performance aircraft wit= hout wing cuffs fitted to consider them. They don't, as far as I understand= , necessarily make an aircraft "spin proof", but in the case of the Legacy,= they would seem to provide an additional margin for error.

Attached a few pics.

If anyone wants more info, I'd be happy to expand on my experience.



Regards,

John
John N G Smith
Tel / fax:    +61-8-9385-8891
Mobile:      +61-409-372-975
Email:         john@jjts.net.au


From: "pete@leapfrogventures.com" <pete@leapfrogventures.com>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List &= lt;lml@lancaironline.net> Date: Sunday, 6 January 2013 9:3= 4 PM
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

IMHO, this discussion about pract= icing stalls/spins so you can learn how to recover from them is a bit nuts.=   The VAST majority of stall/spins occur in the pattern, where there i= s not enough altitude to recover, no matter how skilled you are.  = ; I believe a big portion of the remainder are related to autopilot stalls.=
 
I do think there are two silver b= ullets that can prevent almost all stalls/spins.
 
First, most all of us have Sorcer= er autopilots.  Set the minimum airspeed on the Sorcerer to just under= your best glide speed.  For my ES-P, I use 95 knots.  That saves= me from the autopilot induced stalls.  It also makes setting best gli= de in engine out easy =E2=80=93 just do a direct to on the Garmin, and the = autopilot will turn me in the correct direction, hold altitude until my air= speed bleeds off to 95, then maintain my airspeed at 95 in the descent.&nbs= p; While all this is going on, I can focus on trying to get the engine rest= arted.
 
Second, buy, install, and calibra= te an AOA.  My Advanced AOA did not require me to do a stall to calibr= ate it.  I followed the directions, and bitching betty starts yelling = at me at around 70 knots in the flare, which is exactly the margin that it = was designed to have.  She has already saved me once when a distractio= n got me going a bit slow on a base leg.  She yells, I push.  The= only hard part was learning to ignore her when flaring, but that is anothe= r discussion that relates to growing up with too many sisters.
 
Let=E2=80=99s stop pretending tha= t our superior pilot skills will always save us.  Even the best of us = get distracted and make mistakes.  It is time we all invest in the tec= hnology that is already there to save our asses when we do something stupid= and stop claiming we are better pilots than everyone else because we fly h= igh performance aircraft.
 
Sorry if this sounded like a rant= .
 
Pete=
 
From: Jarrett Johnson [mailto:hjjohnson@sasktel.net]

Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls
 
=E2=80=9C there is no = single silver bullet to answer it= =E2=80=9D
 

----------MB_8CFBA3AF2EBD061_2670_A622C_webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com--