X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 08:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.39] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5997112 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 15:28:17 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.39; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.75]) by imr-ma01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 5DF1A3800008C for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2013 15:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mtb002a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mtb002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.234.197]) by mtaomg-mb04.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 2A589E000082 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2013 15:27:44 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com Full-name: Sky2high X-Original-Message-ID: <47e5.4bace3fd.3e19e6bf@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 15:27:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Stall Pall - another perspective X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_47e5.4bace3fd.3e19e6bf_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:471508672:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294b50e88cc05007 --part1_47e5.4bace3fd.3e19e6bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en =20 All of the comments on stalls have been fairly stated. Bear with me and= =20 try to understand my perspective. I will be speaking generally about the= =20 200/300 series Lancairs, but more specifically my own 320. The 200/300= =20 series are the most optioned/modified kit aircraft you will ever encounter= =E2=80=93=20 every one of them is different from any other, including the CG range in= =20 various flight configurations, parts locations, engines, props, tail size,= fuel=20 distribution and human weight. Because of that fact, these aircraft are=20 ideal for the installation of an angle of attack (AOA) system that uses up= per=20 and lower wing pressures along with pitot/static pressures and therefore= =20 adjusts for atmospheric conditions, wing loading and indicated speed. Som= e =20 also provide an indication of best glide speed (useful when the engine=20 stops providing thrust). One drawback is that it is a measurement on onl= y one=20 wing and there are two.=20 Those folks that have had aerobatic training or are ex-military fighter=20 pilots and also fly a lot are certainly capable of enjoying to the maximum= =20 the responsiveness and maneuverability of these wee Lancairs. Stalling th= eir=20 plane, often entering unusual attitudes and performing aerobatics (even=20 remaining inverted if so equipped) is fine in these strongly built bundles= of=20 fun.=20 I have arranged my 320 for maximum efficient forward speed (honking=20 Hartzell prop, heavy harmonic damper, pitot fed hi pressure air to the inj= ectors,=20 gap seals, internal trim control =E2=80=93 no draggy tabs, etc.) with a so= mewhat=20 forward biased CG that still gives me complete small elevator authority in= =20 all useful flight regimes.=20 The only stalls that interest me are those that have occurred at slow=20 speeds and =E2=80=9Cclose=E2=80=9D to the ground (i.e. on approach, in the= pattern, during=20 turns, upon takeoff and climb out, etc.). Why?, because they almost alwa= ys=20 end in death. The FAA classifies these as loss of control but they seem= =20 mystical to me as they frequently happen to experienced Lancair pilots or= =20 those trained in spam cans that maybe don=E2=80=99t respect a slick experi= mental=20 hi-performance aircraft for what it is. Reading the NTSB accident files = reveals=20 such accidents during S-turns at OSH, departure stalls in a climbing turn,= =20 attempted (stretched) off airport landings, flight in the pattern, yada,= =20 yada, yada. All of these were likely unrecoverable because the departures= =20 from the intended flight occurred too close to the ground. =20 These mystic misadventures occurred during a period of slow flight where= =20 there is little margin away from the stall AOA. Slow flight without at= =20 least some flaps also leads to a hi AOA, the wing loading is increased in = =20 turns, there is a small margin for wind shear, a distraction may result in = back =20 pressure on the stick, etc. ???? An IAS of 1.3 times the stall speed is= =20 not enough in these planes. When it goes bad, it goes bad very fast.=20 Perhaps those that have experienced stalls in their 200/300 series might= =20 relate their experiences with departure type stalls, clean/dirty stalls fr= om=20 decreasing airspeed in level flight, stalls out of slowing speed turns=20 with and without 1/3 or 2/3 flaps, etc. Even though you were expecting t= he=20 stall, how many feet were lost before recovery? What was the recovery pull= =20 out speed and how many more feet would be lost if the reaction time was 1 = or=20 2 seconds longer caused by a surprise stall? Was there a difference when= =20 the plane was loaded up vs light (one or two people, full or lo fuel)?=20 Fred detailed the characteristics of the IVs and some of them are similar= =20 to the 200/300 series. High wing loading (weight/70 sqft for the 300=20 series =E2=80=93 around 22 #/sqft, the wings utilize extensive Laminar flo= w, etc. But,=20 there are others factors that are unique to this series, especially the=20 reflexed flaps and that dirty wings result in increased drag but not a los= s=20 of lift.=20 I don=E2=80=99t practice stalls because there are so many types at slow sp= eeds=20 that will kill me (I only fly 2 speeds =E2=80=93 cruise and near the airpo= rt). Any=20 time I am not at cruise speed I am extra alert =E2=80=93 I do not even like= the=20 mushiness of the controls when in level flight practicing emergency gear d= rops=20 at 87 KIAS, using 1/3 flaps to keep the nose down. I like a circular arc= =20 when flying from downwind to final for adjustments throughout the turn. I= =20 reject requests from the tower for a close in downwind or to make the turn= =20 tighter.=20 You folks fly=E2=80=99m the way you want =E2=80=93 I don=E2=80=99t mind be= ing called a wuss or=20 being urged by a pleasant female voice - =E2=80=9CAngle! Angle! Push!=E2= =80=9D I am more=20 alarmed (no pun) when I hear a mellow voice announcing =E2=80=9CTraffic.= =E2=80=9D=20 Blue Skies,=20 Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk=20 --part1_47e5.4bace3fd.3e19e6bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en

All of the comments o= n stalls=20 have been fairly stated.  Bea= r with=20 me and try to understand my perspective.&= nbsp;=20 I will be speaking generally about the 200/300 series Lancairs, but = more=20 specifically my own 320.  The= =20 200/300 series are the most optioned/modified kit aircraft you will ever=20 encounter =E2=80=93 every one of them is different from any other, includin= g the CG=20 range in various flight configurations, parts locations, engines, props, ta= il=20 size, fuel distribution and human weight.=  =20 Because of that fact, these aircraft are ideal for the installation = of an=20 angle of attack (AOA) system that uses upper and lower wing pressures along= with=20 pitot/static pressures and therefore adjusts for atmospheric conditions, wi= ng=20 loading and indicated speed.  Some=20 also provide an indication of best glide speed (useful when the engine stop= s=20 providing thrust).  One drawb= ack is=20 that it is a measurement on only one wing and there are two.

 

Those folks that have= had=20 aerobatic training or are ex-military fighter pilots and also fly a lot are= =20 certainly capable of enjoying to the maximum the responsiveness and=20 maneuverability of these wee Lancairs.&nb= sp;=20 Stalling their plane, often entering unusual attitudes and performin= g=20 aerobatics (even remaining inverted if so equipped) is fine in these strong= ly=20 built bundles of fun.

 

I have arranged my 32= 0 for=20 maximum efficient forward speed (honking Hartzell prop, heavy harmonic damp= er,=20 pitot fed hi pressure air to the injectors, gap seals, internal trim contro= l =E2=80=93=20 no draggy tabs, etc.) with a somewhat forward biased CG that still gives me= =20 complete small elevator authority in all useful flight regimes.<= /P>

 

The only stalls that = interest=20 me are those that have occurred at slow speeds and =E2=80=9Cclose=E2=80=9D = to the ground (i.e.=20 on approach, in the pattern, during turns, upon takeoff and climb out,=20 etc.).  Why?, because they al= most=20 always end in death.  The FAA= =20 classifies these as loss of control but they seem mystical to me as they=20 frequently happen to experienced Lancair pilots or those trained in spam ca= ns=20 that maybe don=E2=80=99t respect a slick experimental hi-performance aircra= ft for what=20 it is.  Reading the NTSB acci= dent=20 files reveals such accidents during S-turns at OSH, departure stalls in a= =20 climbing turn, attempted (stretched) off airport landings, flight in the=20 pattern, yada, yada, yada.  A= ll of=20 these were likely unrecoverable because the departures from the intended fl= ight=20 occurred too close to the ground. = =20

 

These mystic misadven= tures=20 occurred during a period of slow flight where there is little margin away f= rom=20 the stall AOA.  Slow flight w= ithout=20 at least some flaps also leads to a hi AOA, the wing loading is increased i= n=20 turns, there is a small margin for wind shear, a distraction may result in = back=20 pressure on the stick, etc. ????  An=20 IAS of 1.3 times the stall speed is not enough in these planes.  When it goes bad, it goes bad ver= y=20 fast.

 

Perhaps those that ha= ve=20 experienced stalls in their 200/300 series might relate their experiences w= ith=20 departure type stalls, clean/dirty stalls from decreasing airspeed in level= =20 flight, stalls out of slowing speed turns with and without 1/3 or 2/3 flaps= ,=20 etc.  Even though you were ex= pecting=20 the stall, how many feet were lost before recovery?  What was the recovery pull out sp= eed and=20 how many more feet would be lost if the reaction time was 1 or 2 seconds lo= nger=20 caused by a surprise stall?  = Was=20 there a difference when the plane was loaded up vs light (one or two people= ,=20 full or lo fuel)?

 

Fred detailed the=20 characteristics of the IVs and some of them are similar to the 200/300=20 series.  High wing loading=20 (weight/70 sqft for the 300 series =E2=80=93 around 22 #/sqft, the wings ut= ilize=20 extensive Laminar flow, etc.  But,=20 there are others factors that are unique to this series, especially the ref= lexed=20 flaps and that dirty wings result in increased drag but not a loss of=20 lift.

 

I don=E2=80=99t pract= ice stalls=20 because there are so many types at slow speeds that will kill me (I only fl= y 2=20 speeds =E2=80=93 cruise and near the airport). =20 Any time I am not at cruise speed I am extra alert =E2=80=93 I do no= t even like=20 the mushiness of the controls when in level flight practicing emergency gea= r=20 drops at 87 KIAS, using 1/3 flaps to keep the nose down.  I like a circular arc when flying = from=20 downwind to final for adjustments throughout the turn.  I reject requests from the tower = for a=20 close in downwind or to make the turn tighter.

 

You folks fly=E2=80= =99m the way you=20 want =E2=80=93 I don=E2=80=99t mind being called a wuss or being urged by a= pleasant female=20 voice - =E2=80=9CAngle! Angle! Push!=E2=80=9D I am more alarmed (no pun) wh= en I hear a mellow=20 voice announcing =E2=80=9CTraffic.=E2=80=9D

 

Blue Skies,

 

Scott Krueger AKA=20 Grayhawk

 

 

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