X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 08:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.39] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5997217 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 18:27:54 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.39; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.11]) by imr-ma01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id A16F238000051 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2013 18:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mna001c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mna001.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.106.1]) by mtaomg-ma04.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 65062E000087 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2013 18:27:20 -0500 (EST) References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CFB9B35742A3FA_2670_9D631_webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 37276-STANDARD Received: from 24.107.65.42 by webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com (205.188.103.149) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 05 Jan 2013 18:27:19 -0500 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CFB9B357391E76-2670-3B999@webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [24.107.65.42] X-Original-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 18:27:20 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:448143520:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290b50e8b6d81c2d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CFB9B35742A3FA_2670_9D631_webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry, google "upset recovery training".... I recommend Rich Stowell at www= .richstowell.com or P. J. Ransbury at www.apstraining.com This is required= for most pro flight departments.=20 Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Charles Brown To: lml Sent: Sat, Jan 5, 2013 1:55 pm Subject: [LML] Re: stalls Good answers, thanks. One last question -- Google couldn't help me with UP= ERTA, what is it? On Jan 5, 2013, at 1:33 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: Charley, Now in response, can you give me your honest answers to these: A. Should a pilot count on never entering a stall, or should he assume tha= t an inadvertant stall may happen, and prepare for it? Hope for gthe best p= repare for the worst. That is why stall training is mandatory. B. Is there a better way to prepare for an indavertant stall than practici= ng stalls (either incipient or full) and recoveries? Yes, retain the servi= ces of an UPERTA instructor and get good upset and recovery training C. If an airplane is unrecoverable from a stall, is that airplane safe to = fly on a regular, routine basis? No-- but that is not what I am arguing he= re. Rather the high chance of a stall induced upset in a Lancair is beyond = the abilities of most pilots I train with. Most of these pilots have never = been on their back in an aircraft. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Charles Brown To: lml Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 12:51 am Subject: [LML] Re: stalls Jeff, here are two honest answers (in hopes that you'll respond in kind): 1. Since the CAFE reports on 320/360, Legacy, and IV all cite reasonable s= tall characteristics, I guess if I had a Lancair with stall characteristics= worse than what's reported in those tests, I'd try to fix it, and it shoul= dn't require stall strips. 2. I have flown many stalls in my Legacy, but not tested modifications sin= ce it stalls exactly like the prototype as reported by the CAFE testers. = =20 Now in response, can you give me your honest answers to these: A. Should a pilot count on never entering a stall, or should he assume tha= t an inadvertant stall may happen, and prepare for it? B. Is there a better way to prepare for an indavertant stall than practici= ng stalls (either incipient or full) and recoveries? C. If an airplane is unrecoverable from a stall, is that airplane safe to = fly on a regular, routine basis? Thanks in advance for your thoughts. I value your insights and would enjoy= swapping stories some day. Charley On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: Would you rather spend you time and money learning to recover from an aircr= aft with poor stall characteristics or spending the same dollars improving = those stall characteristics? have found that improving your aircraft's sta= ll characteristics nets the most bang for the buck. Have you done stall tes= ting to include placement of stall strips as Charlie Kohler has suggested? = Taming aircraft stall characteristics are relatively easy with the help of = a good test pilot like Len Fox.=20 Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Charles Brown wrote: Commendable caution but I vote with the guys who say you owe it to yourself= and your passengers to demonstrate your ability to recognize and recover f= rom a stall. If a bad day comes along and you stall for any reason -- usua= lly a bunch of little reasons piled up by chance at one moment -- you need = to recover quickly and safely. And if, for some reason, a stall is unrecov= erable in your airplane -- you shouldn't be flying it. Do a good weight-and-balance, and then take it out one day with a fairly fo= rward CG and give it a shot. Better still, go practice first in the airpla= ne of a buddy who's done it already. Charley Brown On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" wr= ote: I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in = my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, I jus= t don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I stay in ground effect fo= r the half second it takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on la= nding, I approach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let the s= peed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold. During normal flight, = I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed. Too many variables in a= home built airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBAB= LY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is= stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy r= ain). =20 =20 ----------MB_8CFB9B35742A3FA_2670_9D631_webmailstg-d02.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry, google "upset recovery training".... I recommend Rich Stowell a= t www.richstowell.com or P. J. R= ansbury at www.apstraining.com&n= bsp; This is required for most pro flight departments.
 
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brown <browncc1@verizon.net>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Jan 5, 2013 1:55 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

Good answers, thanks.  One last question -- Google couldn't help = me with UPERTA, what is it?


On Jan 5, 2013, at 1:33 PM, vtail= jeff@aol.com wrote:

Charley,
C.  If an airplane is = unrecoverable from a stall, is that airplane safe to fly on a regular, rout= ine basis? No--  but that is not what I am arguing here. Rather the= high chance of a stall induced upset in a Lancair is beyond the abilities = of most pilots I train with. Most of these p= ilots have never been on their back in an aircraft.

Jeff



browncc1@ve= rizon.net>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 12:51 am
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

Jeff, here are two honest answers (in hopes that you'll respond in kin= d):

1.  Since the CAFE reports on 320/360, Legacy, and IV all cite re= asonable stall characteristics, I guess if I had a Lancair with stall chara= cteristics worse than what's reported in those tests, I'd try to fix it, an= d it shouldn't require stall strips.

2.  I have flown many stalls in my Legacy, but not tested modific= ations since it stalls exactly like the prototype as reported by the CAFE t= esters.  

Now in response, can you give me your honest answers to these:

A.  Should a pilot count on never entering a stall, or should he = assume that an inadvertant stall may happen, and prepare for it?

B.  Is there a better way to prepare for an indavertant stall tha= n practicing stalls (either incipient or full) and recoveries?

C.  If an airplane is unrecoverable from a stall, is that airplan= e safe to fly on a regular, routine basis?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  I value your insights and w= ould enjoy swapping stories some day.

Charley



Would you rather spend you time and money learning to recover from an = aircraft with poor stall characteristics or spending the same dollars impro= ving those stall characteristics?  have found that improving your airc= raft's stall characteristics nets the most bang for the buck. Have you done= stall testing to include placement of stall strips as Charlie Kohler has s= uggested? Taming aircraft stall characteristics are relatively easy with th= e help of a good test pilot like Len Fox. 

Jeff
Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Charles Brown <browncc1@verizon.net> wrote:

Commendable caution but I vote with the guys who say you owe it to you= rself and your passengers to demonstrate your ability to recognize and reco= ver from a stall.  If a bad day comes along and you stall for any reas= on -- usually a bunch of little reasons piled up by chance at one moment --= you need to recover quickly and safely.  And if, for some reason, a s= tall is unrecoverable in your airplane -- you shouldn't be flying it.

Do a good weight-and-balance, and then take it out one day with a fair= ly forward CG and give it a shot.  Better still, go practice first in = the airplane of a buddy who's done it already.

Charley Brown



On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmpt@sonic.net> wrote:

I have made the decision prior to= purchasing to avoid stalls=20 altogether in my 360.  After reading the stall and stall spin accident= =20 information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I s= tay=20 in ground effect for the half second it takes to make it into the green aft= er=20 wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my flap configuratio= n,=20 and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold.  Duri= ng=20 normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too= many=20 variables in a home built airplane with no precise envelope, a header = tank=20 that is PROBABLY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds i= f the=20 gauge is stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention after= =20 heavy rain).


=20

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