X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 08:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm22-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.210] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5997246 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 19:07:59 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.210; envelope-from=n20087@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.226.180] by nm22.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 00:07:25 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.35] by tm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 00:07:25 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp102-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2013 00:07:25 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 396811.64085.bm@smtp102-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: RbWpTCEVM1lpCM3rL860aPnLsOkGz4uwNgqsgzIhu2vZDRt _I_C34pXsHDlcJkwDU9zNFWkp8d3BhVqURDUhu42DHYIiHAk9xn1QUDoIJeA P6mBepQP0gSd2W1q2Zs5BupF6Zk0cG3GNGF6UKpSqEuQml77jCaTmeIU_870 GFVDnOr27UDmL7Qi2UjJjarGzOVv4DCVpwvQvbyIiEAIJxV4.HTWyIHWVilh rmAouZvyVmO1aC3p8oRPnkGDFJFSLW5nsUyMoDoJfIPZ5FkZaSa9eD.Zr7NP Fbz7V_kPww8UHnIybVYreKHVHpw7P_HkLT6O71xzz9e5N_MLSVzn.ucwy3AX 6ZHQcMZN5RQpGxewwJ.N9vyzozVQhZe0oKeg.AlqV_etxqmPfbopE9nW5Yuf kjBrJxLUSk_JLQWj6M2jmfcOC.M7.1McYN.D5wcDsMcdhalvcGyIIIjM3cRG IQonXxfjh8myGOpyRKl.2fpya2FLilsDh8Kemr8ZG.T8CPjSUvJLnEQ-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: NQQt3c2swBAKSrExoA1eZuT7_w-- Received: from [192.168.1.103] (n20087@98.185.56.123 with xymcookie) by smtp102-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Jan 2013 16:07:25 -0800 PST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls References: From: N20087 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-BEBFD9BF-BFA5-4D3B-8015-A777A49D2C25 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B176) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <3D6606FC-BA66-400A-8331-5EB28B671BB6@yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 19:07:01 -0500 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-BEBFD9BF-BFA5-4D3B-8015-A777A49D2C25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jeff Justin's phone number is (757) 332-0537 Thanks Tom Sent from my iPad On Jan 5, 2013, at 11:19 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: > Great talking to you Tom! Please remember to send me Justin's contact info= rmation.=20 >=20 > Jeff >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: N20087 > To: lml > Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 11:46 am > Subject: [LML] Re: stalls >=20 > Jeff >=20 > I tried calling you on your cell to discuss this.topic. The call would not= go through. Would you have some time for me on the subject? >=20 > 540 521 1551 >=20 > Tom Gardiner >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jan 3, 2013, at 6:03 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: >=20 >> Bill, >>=20 >> I respectfully disagree with just about everything you are saying here. W= ould you please contact me offline or give me you number so I can call you? >>=20 >> Jeff Edwards >> 324-308-6719 cell >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Bradburry >> To: lml >> Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm >> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls >>=20 >> We are on the same page here, Colyn. >> =20 >> You are saying that you should be trained to fly your airplane and so am I= . The ability to recognize and recover from a stall is taught before a new p= ilot is ever allowed to solo. That ability is critical. Same with the LIV.= You can not get a plane on the ground without stalling it so you are going= to encounter the characteristics of a stall every time you land. If that s= tarts to happen when you are too high, you can die. >> =20 >> Bill >> =20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Co= lyn Case >> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls >> =20 >> Bill,=20 >> =20 >> No you didn't get it. >> =20 >> You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range of= experience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of CG's, wi= ng incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec. It is a statist= ical fact that the accident rate among these permutations of pilots and airc= raft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse per operational ho= ur than airline operation. Notably solo pilots with limited make/model exp= erience fare much worse. >> =20 >> Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing my s= tall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition of the a= irplane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block raked off t= he primer from my leading edge to fix it. Similarly, when Len was testing t= he factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out because it wouldn't r= ecover from a spin the way the prototype (built to the same specs) did. Th= at's how little a change affects flight behavior. =20 >> =20 >> You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to exec= ute and recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly. However, unless you c= an accurately predict that every pilot on this list operating with whatever a= ircraft, however configured, with no prior experience doing so, will have a= safe outcome the first time performing this maneuver alone, then I would re= commend against provoking all of them to do so. >> =20 >> Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that shows u= p is that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a lot better t= han those that don't. That is why I take issue with recommendations to exp= eriment on your own. By all means, be familiar with your airplane, but giv= e us a hand with the safety situation and get trained in this make/model. >> =20 >> Colyn >> =20 >> On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> No, I got it. I just don=E2=80=99t get all this talk about Lancairs bein= g deadly in a stall. It seems you are trying to scare Lancair drivers into f= oregoing stall training. That, in my opinion, will kill more people than le= arning to fly their planes. I understand the reason for no spins and if you= know how to recover your plane from an incipient stall, there should never b= e a reason to recover from a spin. >> But flying a plane that you are afraid to, and have never, stalled is jus= t plane dumb! >> =20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Co= lyn Case >> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:33 AM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls >> =20 >> I guess you didn't get my point... >> =20 >> On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Because nobody wants to die alone?? >> =20 >> If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you pro= bably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo. >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Co= lyn Case >> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls >> =20 >> aerodynamically, I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. = One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm all in favor= of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in= their Lancair's solo and doing it.... >> =20 >> On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote: >> =20 >> Why not? >> If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to reco= gnize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when i= t stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro w= e stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungrate= ful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you= good tips about recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, righ= t wing drop, left wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pr= e stall is the most important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and= bitch at me and tells me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kill= s me. I advise you to get a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend t= he best 2 hrs of your life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. I= t's=20 >> Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy..... >> Sorry about that but >> My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes alw= ays told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn w= hen it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots and come and= land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN= , chipmunk etc. >> My few cents worth of it. You will live longer. >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" w= rote: >>> I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether i= n my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, I ju= st don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I stay in ground effect fo= r the half second it takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on lan= ding, I approach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let the spe= ed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold. During normal flight, I d= on't even get near a typical slow flight speed. Too many variables in a hom= e built airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY wh= ere I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck= ; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain). >>> =20 >>> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of E= d Gray >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM >>> To: lml@lancaironline.net >>> Subject: [LML] stalls >>> Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are flying l= ow under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety pilot >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/1= 2 >>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 --Apple-Mail-BEBFD9BF-BFA5-4D3B-8015-A777A49D2C25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Jeff

<= div>Justin's phone number is (757) 332-0537

Th= anks

Tom

Sent from my iPad

On J= an 5, 2013, at 11:19 AM, vtailjeff@aol.= com wrote:

Great talking to you Tom! Please re= member to send me Justin's contact information. 

Jeff


-----O= riginal Message-----
From: N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com>= ;
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 11:46 am
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

Jeff

I tried calling you on your cell to discuss this.topic. The call would n= ot go through. Would you have some time for me on the subject?

540 521 1551

Tom Gardiner

Sent from my iPad
Bill,

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you are saying here.= Would you please contact me offline or give me you number so I can call you= ?

Jeff Edwards
324-308-6719 cell


-----O= riginal Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradbu= rry@bellsouth.net>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

We are on the sam= e page here, Colyn.
 
You are saying th= at you should be trained to fly your airplane and so am I.  The ability to recognize and recover= from a stall is taught before a new pilot is ever allowed to solo.  Tha= t ability is critical.  Same with the LIV.  You can not get a plane on the g= round without stalling it so you are going to encounter the characteristics of a stall every time you land.  If that starts to happen when you are too high, you can die.
 
Bill
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [= mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2= 013 11:31 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
Bill, 
 
No you didn't get it.
 
You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range of experience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of CG's, win= g incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec.   It is a statistical fact that the accident rate among these permutations of pilots a= nd aircraft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse per operationa= l hour than airline operation.   Notably solo pilots with limited make/mo= del experience fare much worse.
 
Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing my stall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition of the airpla= ne to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block raked off the prime= r from my leading edge to fix it.   Similarly, when Len was testing the factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out because it wouldn't recover from a spin the way the prototype (built to the same specs) did.   That's how little a change affects flight behavior.   
 
You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to execute and= recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly.   However, unless you can= accurately predict that every pilot on this list operating with whatever aircraft, however configured,  with no prior experience doing so, will have a safe outcome the first time performing this maneuver alone, then I wo= uld recommend against provoking all of them to do so.
 
Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that shows up is that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a lot better than those that don't.   That is why I take issue with recommendations to experime= nt on your own.   By all means, be familiar with your airplane, but give u= s a hand with the safety situation and get trained in this make/model.
 
Colyn
  
On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:


No, I got it.&nbs= p; I just don=E2=80=99t get all this talk about Lancairs being deadly in a stall.  It seems you are= trying to scare Lancair drivers into foregoing stall training.  That, in my opinion, will kill more people than learning to fly their planes.  I understand the reason for no spins and if you know how to recover your plane= from an incipient stall, there should never be a reason to recover from a sp= in.
But flying a plan= e that you are afraid to, and have never, stalled is just plane dumb!
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]= On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2= 013 8:33 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
I guess you didn't get my point...
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:



Because nobody wa= nts to die alone??
 
If you are not co= mpetent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it sol= o.
 
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]= On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2= 013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair has in common with a Zlin.    On= e thing it doesn't have is excess control authority.   I'm all in favor o= f stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and doing it....
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:
 
Why not?
If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when it sta= lls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro we stall t= he airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungrateful critical= sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you good tips ab= out recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left= wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the mos= t important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tel= ls me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to g= et a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your lif= e stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's 
Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy.....
Sorry about that but
My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes always to= ld me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn when it do= es it look at the speed when it happens, add 10  knots and come and land, it h= as never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc= .
My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmp@sonic.net> wrote:
I have made the d= ecision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.  After reading the sta= ll and stall spin accident information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I stay in ground effect for the half second it take= s to make it into the green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well above= stall for my flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet= above the threshold.  During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too many variables in a home built airplane= with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think i= t is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible extr= a wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain).
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]= On Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 20= 13 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] stalls<= /font>
Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.  If you are flying low und= er the hood, I hope you have a well qualified  safety pilot<= /div>
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.c= om
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
 
 
 
=20
= --Apple-Mail-BEBFD9BF-BFA5-4D3B-8015-A777A49D2C25--