X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 08:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nk11p08mm-asmtp001.mac.com ([17.158.58.246] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5997317 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 23:40:54 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=17.158.58.246; envelope-from=gw5@me.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_OpsbTaaQIlOdDjEXY6nWgg)" Received: from [10.55.209.97] (216-147-135-217.globalsat.net [216.147.135.217]) by nk11p08mm-asmtp001.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-26.01(7.0.4.26.0) 64bit (built Jul 13 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MG600C67SYYFE90@nk11p08mm-asmtp001.mac.com> for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 04:40:20 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.9.8327,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-01-06_02:2013-01-04,2013-01-06,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1203120001 definitions=main-1301050378 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Getting back into the air References: From: George Wehrung X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-reply-to: X-Original-Message-id: <91043174-1637-49C4-B2FB-2AD1B1EB8297@me.com> X-Original-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 09:12:16 +0430 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Boundary_(ID_OpsbTaaQIlOdDjEXY6nWgg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, I have been reading a lot of your comments including the stall debate/argume= nt. Your sage advice has lead me to join LOBO. My wife and I are buying a 2009 Super ES that I have been flying in since 20= 10 as a CFII, partner and now buyer since 2010.=20 I also read the white paper that is on the web page discussing the accident h= istory of the Lancairs and it caused me to take notice. I am in the less tha= n 100 hour category. However, I also fit in the ATP/CFII/Military (I fly pr= ofessionally around the world for a living) experience pie wedge but it does= n't mean that I am not cautious when I fly the Grey Lady. For one, I am very new and inexperienced in the experimental world. I am no= t used to not having a complete performance planning section for takeoff, cl= imb, enroute, and landing data nor stall numbers for our airplane. The unkno= wn makes me nervous.=20 Two, I know very little about lifetime fatigue issues of E-Glass, fiber glas= s, or other composite materials. But I love our airplane and the people we h= ave met. My wife and I also became lifetime members of EAA. We will be moving our airplane from CA to NC this summer and if I am in coun= try I hope to attend the Lancair Fly-In. =20 I also hope that once you all process my membership application I will have a= ccess to more ES data on your website. I am in the process of revising our P= OH during my time off here in Afghanistan. But the best data I can find is a= POH for N85WP, well written but references Columbia 350 performance data. D= id Lancair ever publish an electronic version of their original POH? One thing I would like to push for is a break in insurance rates for the ES b= ecause of its low accident rate, non pressurized, fixed gear, and non-turbo s= tatus? Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. George Sent from my iPad On Dec 16, 2012, at 20:45, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: > John, > =20 > Great questions. > =20 > First-- how much does your aircraft weigh empty? IVP's are heavier than IV= 's, naturally and have higher landing speeds. > =20 > Speaking from my experience and LOBO's flight training recommendations, 30= 00 feet of level paved runway in good dry condition with no obstacles in the= approach/departure path is the absolute minimum for an experienced LIVP pi= lot with a proven aircraft. > =20 > My LIVP would typically use 2000 feet to get off the ground and 2000 feet o= f stopping distance on the ground. > =20 > For landing, on a 3000 foot runway with 2000 feet to stop means obviously y= ou must be very good at putting the aircraft exactly on the aimpoint. The IV= P typically crosses the threshold at 100 KIAS. With no wind at sea level tha= t is approximately 100 KTAS and 100 KGS. If you are spotting a touchdown 500= feet down the runway it means you have about 3.2 seconds from threshold to t= ouchdown. If you are a little fast or a little high and over shoot your touc= hdown spot you are chewing up runway at about 150 feet per second. So you ha= ve three seconds from passing that chosen spot to the point that if you put i= t on the runway you will not be able to stop before going off the end. Rain,= turbulence, etc. Forget it. > =20 > For folks in the Phase I period I urge you to use 5000 feet or more of run= way. You have spent many years and thousands of dollars building it now is n= ot the time to get cheap. When you are at that 5000 foot runway put a marker= at 3000 feet and see how many times you go past it on landing or taking off= . I had a client years ago that wanted to use a 2500 foot runway. We trained= at a 5000 foot runway with a midfield taxiway. He could never get it stoppe= d in 2500 feet. Never. Never, Never. > =20 > BTW I had this same conversation six months ago with Fairley Gooch, a reti= red Delta captain/ former military pilot. He chose to ignore my advice and L= OBO's advice. May he rest in peace. > =20 > Best regards, > =20 > Jeff > =20 > The advice I=E2=80=99m looking for centers around the fact that our runway= is 3,000 feet long, certainly more than adequate for this airplane but not b= y a lot. The first flight after reinstallation will be a test flight with s= everal different concerns > -----Original Message----- > From: John Barrett > To: lml > Sent: Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:56 pm > Subject: [LML] Getting back into the air >=20 > My Lancair IVP after 55 hours of total flight time is having an engine ove= rhaul (it was a =E2=80=9Cnew engine=E2=80=9D to start with from Performance E= ngines =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ll tell that story later) and I expect to get the= engine back from Barrett in Tulsa in January or early February. It will ta= ke a while to get the engine back on =E2=80=93 all the other upgrades and fi= xes completed, taxi tests etc etc and so I expect to be ready to get airborn= e again in the spring or early summer. > =20 > I have about 60 hours of personal IVP time =E2=80=93 50 of them in my airp= lane. I am hangared at 0S9, Port Townsend International Airport in Washingt= on State.=20 > =20 > The advice I=E2=80=99m looking for centers around the fact that our runway= is 3,000 feet long, certainly more than adequate for this airplane but not b= y a lot. The first flight after reinstallation will be a test flight with s= everal different concerns.=20 > =20 > 1. Although I have much confidence in my decision to have Barrett ov= erhaul the engine, it=E2=80=99s still a break in flight and carries more ris= k than normal for that first takeoff. > 2. Because I am still a low time LIV driver and I will have had almo= st 6 months of rust developing in my IVP skills, that will be a factor > 3. Because the airport environment is not conducive to emergency lan= ding after takeoff (trees and salt water at both ends) engine problems durin= g this takeoff would be problematic. > =20 > Port Angeles is about 6 or 7 minutes away in the IVP and has a nice long a= nd wide runway, so the plan is to head directly there and perform engine bre= ak in over head that airport followed by several landings there prior to ret= urning to home field. There is another runway at Sequim midway between that= is 4,000 ft long - it=E2=80=99s narrow but could be a satisfactory emergen= cy strip if necessary. > =20 > Is there advice other than hiring another test pilot and/or buying time in= someone else=E2=80=99s IVP that I should be planning for to lower risks in t= his upcoming event? Any other concerns I should be thinking about I haven=E2= =80=99t mentioned? > =20 > =20 > =20 > Regards, > =20 > John Barrett, CEO > Leading Edge Composites > PO Box 428 > Port Hadlock, WA 98339 > =20 > www.carbinge.com > =20 --Boundary_(ID_OpsbTaaQIlOdDjEXY6nWgg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff,

=
I have been reading a lot of your comments including the stall debate/a= rgument. Your sage advice has lead me to join LOBO.

My wife and I are buying a 2009 Super ES that I have been flying in since 2= 010 as a CFII, partner and now buyer since 2010. 

<= div>I also read the white paper that is on the web page discussing the accid= ent history of the Lancairs and it caused me to take notice. I am in the les= s than 100 hour category.  However, I also fit in the ATP/CFII/Military= (I fly professionally around the world for a living) experience pie wedge b= ut it doesn't mean that I am not cautious when I fly the Grey Lady.
For one, I am very new and inexperienced in the experimenta= l world.  I am not used to not having a complete performance planning s= ection for takeoff, climb, enroute, and landing data nor stall numbers for o= ur airplane. The unknown makes me nervous. 

Tw= o, I know very little about lifetime fatigue issues of E-Glass, fiber glass,= or other composite materials. But I love our airplane and the people we hav= e met.  My wife and I also became lifetime members of EAA.
We will be moving our airplane from CA to NC this summer and if= I am in country I hope to attend the Lancair Fly-In.  

<= /div>
I also hope that once you all process my membership application I w= ill have access to more ES data on your website.  I am in the process o= f revising our POH during my time off here in Afghanistan. But the best data= I can find is a POH for N85WP, well written but references Columbia 350 per= formance data.  Did Lancair ever publish an electronic version of their= original POH?

One thing I would like to push for i= s a break in insurance rates for the ES because of its low accident rate, no= n pressurized, fixed gear, and non-turbo status?

Th= anks again for sharing your knowledge.

George
Sent from my iPad

On Dec 16, 2012, at 20:45, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
John,
 
Great questions.
 
First-- how much does your aircraft weigh empty? IVP's are heavier than= IV's, naturally and have higher landing speeds.
 
Speaking from my experience and LOBO's flight training recommendations,= 3000 feet of level paved runway in good dry condition with no obstacle= s in the approach/departure path  is the absolute minimum for a= n experienced LIVP pilot with a proven aircraft.
 
My LIVP would typically use 2000 feet to get off the ground and 2000 fe= et of stopping distance on the ground.
 
For landing, on a 3000 foot runway with 2000 feet to stop means obvious= ly you must be very good at putting the aircraft exactly on the aimpoint. Th= e IVP typically crosses the threshold at 100 KIAS. With no wind at sea level= that is approximately 100 KTAS and 100 KGS. If you are spotting a touchdown= 500 feet down the runway it means you have about 3.2 seconds from threshold= to touchdown. If you are a little fast or a little high and over shoot your= touchdown spot you are chewing up runway at about 150 feet per second. So y= ou have three seconds from passing that chosen spot to the point that if you= put it on the runway you will not be able to stop before going off the end.= Rain, turbulence, etc. Forget it.
 
For folks in the Phase I period I urge you to use 5000 feet or more of r= unway. You have spent many years and thousands of dollars building it now is= not the time to get cheap. When you are at that 5000 foot runway put a mark= er at 3000 feet and see how many times you go past it on landing or taking o= ff. I had a client years ago that wanted to use a 2500 foot runway. We train= ed at a 5000 foot runway with a midfield taxiway. He could never get it stop= ped in 2500 feet. Never. Never, Never.
 
BTW I had this same conversation six months ago with Fairley Gooch= , a retired Delta captain/ former military pilot. He chose to ignore my= advice and LOBO's advice. May he rest in peace.
 
Best regards,
 
Jeff
 
=
The advice I=E2=80=99m looking for c= enters around the fact that our runway is 3,000 feet=20 long, certainly more than adequate for this airplane but not by a lot. = The=20 first flight after reinstallation will be a test flight with several differe= nt=20 concerns
= -----Original Message-----
From: John Barrett <jbarrett@car= binge.com>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:56 pm
Subject: [LML] Getting back into the air

My Lancair IVP after 55 hours of total flight time i= s having an engine overhaul (it was a =E2=80=9Cnew engine=E2=80=9D to start w= ith from Performance Engines =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ll tell that story later) a= nd I expect to get the engine back from Barrett in Tulsa in January or early= February.  It will take a while to get the engine back on =E2=80=93 al= l the other upgrades and fixes completed, taxi tests etc etc and so I expect= to be ready to get airborne again in the spring or early summer.
 
I have about 60 hours of personal IVP time =E2=80=93= 50 of them in my airplane.  I am hangared at 0S9, Port Townsend Intern= ational Airport in Washington State. 
 
The advice I=E2=80=99m looking for centers around t= he fact that our runway is 3,000 feet long, certainly more than adequate for= this airplane but not by a lot.  The first flight after reinstallation= will be a test flight with several different concerns. 
 
1.   &n= bsp;   Although I have much confidence in my decisio= n to have Barrett overhaul the engine, it=E2=80=99s still a break in flight a= nd carries more risk than normal for that first takeoff.
2.   &n= bsp;   Because I am still a low time LIV driver and I= will have had almost 6 months of rust developing in my IVP skills, that wil= l be a factor
3.   &n= bsp;   Because the airport environment is not conduc= ive to emergency landing after takeoff (trees and salt water at both ends) e= ngine problems during this takeoff would be problematic.
 
Port Angeles is about 6 or 7 minutes away in the IV= P and has a nice long and wide runway, so the plan is to head directly there= and perform engine break in over head that airport followed by several land= ings there prior to returning to home field.  There is another runway a= t Sequim midway between that is 4,000 ft long -  it=E2=80=99s narrow bu= t could be a satisfactory emergency strip if necessary.
 
Is there advice other than hiring another test pilo= t and/or buying time in someone else=E2=80=99s IVP that I should be planning= for to lower risks in this upcoming event?  Any other concerns I shoul= d be thinking about I haven=E2=80=99t mentioned?
 
 
 
Regards,
 
John Barrett, CEO
Leading Edge Composites
PO Box 428
Port Hadlock, WA 98339
 
www.carbinge.com
 
= --Boundary_(ID_OpsbTaaQIlOdDjEXY6nWgg)--