X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 14:54:49 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm30-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5997070 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 14:40:09 -0500 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.194; envelope-from=browncc1@verizon.net Received: from [98.139.44.101] by nm30.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 19:39:35 -0000 Received: from [98.138.85.47] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 19:39:35 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp104.vzn.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 19:39:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 454265.9144.bm@smtp104.vzn.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: TOmczHgVM1kVENYFtc4rP8RDL86ZGLv7bqkvk3zBAnwa623 fU1Ca1YVNZ35GNXjMYxX2bReftvD_AobFEI7BBsYrSbaM5RWS_MKzzL8cBz. FF95U9vhN9ZEQRNyWfk8kqFjE1ooAd8VNU70gHi1_6oIwWuThCf.qMHUXsIM cqOaYv_w78kpEYS_jwjohxY_YR_QgIzxM6co3fg7InX7xgyUgv87G.1TqwhZ FVvCDwRZ72xeIXDwZS_YoQkIpbkZ1_Duym.uvVtRAP0HmaAb5YJf5LWUa3BK LzybGvgmak5QMKP1UyzWnSrJElsp3KdU4GYNobkZ2cuHtMHC.huBKt8Z1yTF M.j5ZU2RugPR3L5Lobf2c3v2IzSljH4led_iHGzyAIBN_c.8mj2FpfFWg7o4 U.wahvDGx8Q.HRaJwavzzMzJxBzh6F_tGV0JmSgukOE30okBgO5onn67qJbs pG0I.fsBKGmFPlVA1.Q.3onqt X-Yahoo-SMTP: F49l9g6swBC0R9n8vJIbm7Tf3P8Xlmia8rHIwTlO__Ml Received: from new-host.home (browncc1@72.64.105.53 with plain) by smtp104.vzn.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Jan 2013 11:39:35 -0800 PST From: Charles Brown Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--997032166 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls X-Original-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:39:33 -0600 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <260A911D-6F3B-4C2C-9CD5-9E760268E6B0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) --Apple-Mail-2--997032166 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Good answers, thanks. One last question -- Google couldn't help me with = UPERTA, what is it? On Jan 5, 2013, at 1:33 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: Charley, Now in response, can you give me your honest answers to these: A. Should a pilot count on never entering a stall, or should he assume = that an inadvertant stall may happen, and prepare for it? Hope for gthe = best prepare for the worst. That is why stall training is mandatory. B. Is there a better way to prepare for an indavertant stall than = practicing stalls (either incipient or full) and recoveries? Yes, = retain the services of an UPERTA instructor and get good upset and = recovery training C. If an airplane is unrecoverable from a stall, is that airplane safe = to fly on a regular, routine basis? No-- but that is not what I am = arguing here. Rather the high chance of a stall induced upset in a = Lancair is beyond the abilities of most pilots I train with. Most of = these pilots have never been on their back in an aircraft. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Charles Brown To: lml Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 12:51 am Subject: [LML] Re: stalls Jeff, here are two honest answers (in hopes that you'll respond in = kind): 1. Since the CAFE reports on 320/360, Legacy, and IV all cite = reasonable stall characteristics, I guess if I had a Lancair with stall = characteristics worse than what's reported in those tests, I'd try to = fix it, and it shouldn't require stall strips. 2. I have flown many stalls in my Legacy, but not tested modifications = since it stalls exactly like the prototype as reported by the CAFE = testers. =20 Now in response, can you give me your honest answers to these: A. Should a pilot count on never entering a stall, or should he assume = that an inadvertant stall may happen, and prepare for it? B. Is there a better way to prepare for an indavertant stall than = practicing stalls (either incipient or full) and recoveries? C. If an airplane is unrecoverable from a stall, is that airplane safe = to fly on a regular, routine basis? Thanks in advance for your thoughts. I value your insights and would = enjoy swapping stories some day. Charley On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: Would you rather spend you time and money learning to recover from an = aircraft with poor stall characteristics or spending the same dollars = improving those stall characteristics? have found that improving your = aircraft's stall characteristics nets the most bang for the buck. Have = you done stall testing to include placement of stall strips as Charlie = Kohler has suggested? Taming aircraft stall characteristics are = relatively easy with the help of a good test pilot like Len Fox.=20 Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Charles Brown wrote: > Commendable caution but I vote with the guys who say you owe it to = yourself and your passengers to demonstrate your ability to recognize = and recover from a stall. If a bad day comes along and you stall for = any reason -- usually a bunch of little reasons piled up by chance at = one moment -- you need to recover quickly and safely. And if, for some = reason, a stall is unrecoverable in your airplane -- you shouldn't be = flying it. >=20 > Do a good weight-and-balance, and then take it out one day with a = fairly forward CG and give it a shot. Better still, go practice first = in the airplane of a buddy who's done it already. >=20 > Charley Brown >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" = wrote: >>=20 >>> I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls = altogether in my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident = information, I just don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I = stay in ground effect for the half second it takes to make it into the = green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my = flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above = the threshold. During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical = slow flight speed. Too many variables in a home built airplane with no = precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think it is, = but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible = extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain). >=20 --Apple-Mail-2--997032166 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:
Charley,
Now in response, can you give me your honest answers to = these:

A.  Should a pilot count on never entering a stall, or = should he assume that an inadvertant stall may happen, and prepare for = it? Hope for gthe best prepare for the worst. That is why stall training = is mandatory.

B.  Is there a better way to prepare for an indavertant = stall than practicing stalls (either incipient or full) and recoveries? =  Yes, retain the services of an UPERTA instructor and get good = upset and recovery training

C.  If an airplane = is unrecoverable from a stall, is that airplane safe to fly on a = regular, routine basis? No--  but that is not what I am arguing = here. Rather the high chance of a stall induced upset in a Lancair is = beyond the abilities of most pilots I= train with. Most of these pilots have never been on their back in an = aircraft.

Jeff



-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brown <browncc1@verizon.net>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 12:51 am
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

Jeff, here are two honest answers (in hopes that you'll respond in = kind):

1.  Since the CAFE reports on 320/360, Legacy, and IV all cite = reasonable stall characteristics, I guess if I had a Lancair with stall = characteristics worse than what's reported in those tests, I'd try to = fix it, and it shouldn't require stall strips.

2.  I have flown many stalls in my Legacy, but not tested = modifications since it stalls exactly like the prototype as reported by = the CAFE testers.  

Now in response, can you give me your honest answers to = these:

A.  Should a pilot count on never entering a stall, or should = he assume that an inadvertant stall may happen, and prepare for = it?

B.  Is there a better way to prepare for an indavertant stall = than practicing stalls (either incipient or full) and recoveries?

C.  If an airplane is unrecoverable from a stall, is that = airplane safe to fly on a regular, routine basis?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  I value your insights = and would enjoy swapping stories some day.

Charley


On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:

Would you rather spend you time and money learning to recover from = an aircraft with poor stall characteristics or spending the same dollars = improving those stall characteristics?  have found that improving = your aircraft's stall characteristics nets the most bang for the buck. = Have you done stall testing to include placement of stall strips as = Charlie Kohler has suggested? Taming aircraft stall characteristics are = relatively easy with the help of a good test pilot like Len = Fox. 

Jeff
Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Charles Brown <browncc1@verizon.net> = wrote:

Commendable caution but I vote with the guys who say you owe it to = yourself and your passengers to demonstrate your ability to recognize = and recover from a stall.  If a bad day comes along and you stall = for any reason -- usually a bunch of little reasons piled up by chance = at one moment -- you need to recover quickly and safely.  And if, = for some reason, a stall is unrecoverable in your airplane -- you = shouldn't be flying it.

Do a good weight-and-balance, and then take it out one day with a = fairly forward CG and give it a shot.  Better still, go practice = first in the airplane of a buddy who's done it already.

Charley Brown



On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmpt@sonic.net> = wrote:

I have made the decision = prior to purchasing to avoid stalls=20 altogether in my 360.  After reading the stall and stall spin = accident=20 information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, = I stay=20 in ground effect for the half second it takes to make it into the green = after=20 wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my flap = configuration,=20 and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold.  = During=20 normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  = Too many=20 variables in a home built airplane with no precise envelope, a = header tank=20 that is PROBABLY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 = pounds if the=20 gauge is stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention = after=20 heavy rain).



= --Apple-Mail-2--997032166--