X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 14:54:49 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm19-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.59] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5997080 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 14:49:17 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.59; envelope-from=charliekohler@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.52] by nm19.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 19:48:43 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.173] by tm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 19:48:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 19:48:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 655044.74198.bm@omp1029.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 38573 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2013 19:48:43 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=3j6vVc5E7GsyoA6zYWpRM+QcAoWQwXaRo+qY2rITO2kJDSIz+sziH+yhNMyn59sYNd9QppLG+APKsKvXWKBXI0Lleme3zQ9RT/RX7ws3sq+DkKy6OKm9J2Uj4lCknCkkts6ce+P+6WpTLocCFjdBjeq3+zciKuMam1piEx/8+/g=; X-YMail-OSG: BkZxxG0VM1nrwKGAyXOzYrYU0QoiDiFz3LVXMoFc7G1X1B_ m200wO31NxXf_pbiEbQD81Ocz4BNWe6D4OvPHY9HL2HUhdSXRDe7Ebj1q94G FO9FBv8_1Z6g.Eoorg4xm4UcFgvBwuScUdAS0x8Ggra_tNhB8f7KvRwgwV2W GNjhLhNC4La_aTQNgxwFBr.Q_DxjEsMtnmdNJW6GIYOON5gJ2EeiUb3.yquV ulKst3lukEh71CYTf.90PLV2sYhGM1iL989WLLch_j2eWINLSduOmK1Ox4ju wTWjw3vxIPqD53xTscC8zJX0G_Wm265G0OVRNoa.FtlbA9qvJgB5MEKVSp9F bRde5zFxoTgIH3zAGco3fVJFoEEXTKvvSLvMzLDFuyRUjRPzKt39P2si3d4n rygWB0hP4K5IcpUrbj7n9.UUoGHZ.03z6azSTHN3SZsVzUdX_Y4XmCMc.NOM eqse_izKGT8kvgwsDscMwYtpyuVih2WMcro42BJ3SDg.7xdcEbiyowTGHOsO B033p6ZCw5Nj_DjtUktN2w3jan9Ei8Ew1yb6jXgEs3xwVZsNNCg79pF46jJy d3uAc7J327z44NAoa7z3CLt9QeK00NdQBsmn_j8RmqKFoQBe3KeNwHZ8LoGY PhVKZzXmbfNGjGUvAGSf0bSGXzQHY7jir_69EVyuDDMBE759KOaL.yKCsd68 gcpqcRuqWYPFGw7xXY0vDGU_CjSPI3Jl6CZ5aPy2elCBNB0begA.kIWuWIic n9JXr91610ahJ17JzhmrQI9g.czpblBY5sCMh6JsKL.7PdlEX6_AWDvpDPOu QnBaA Received: from [67.8.20.66] by web122206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 11:48:43 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,SSByZW1lbWJlciB0aGUgZGF5LCBXYXkgYmFjayB3aGVuLCBvdXIgY2hpZWYgcGlsb3Qgd2FzIHN1c3BlbmRlZCBieSB0aGUgRkFBIGZvciBkb2luZyBhbiBhcHByb2FjaCB0byBzdGFsbCAoc2hha2VyKSAtIGluIGEgNzQ3LSBpbiB0aGUgcGF0dGVybiBhdCBNaWFtaSBpbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsLiBIZSB3YXMgY29uZmlkZW50IGl0IHdhcyBwZXJmZWN0bHkgc2FmZS4tLS0gSSB3YXMgbm90IG9uIGJvYXJkLgoKCsKgCkNoYXJsaWUgSy4KwqAKU2VlIG1lIG9uIHRoZSB3ZWIgYXQgCnd3dy5MYW5jYWlyLUlWLmNvbQoBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.129.483 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1357415323.30870.YahooMailNeo@web122206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 11:48:43 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie Kohler Reply-To: Charlie Kohler Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-2079400718-1802294551-1357415323=:30870" ---2079400718-1802294551-1357415323=:30870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember the day, Way back when, our chief pilot was suspended by the FAA= for doing an approach to stall (shaker) - in a 747- in the pattern at Miam= i international. He was confident it was perfectly safe.--- I was not on bo= ard.=0A=0A=0A=C2=A0=0ACharlie K.=0A=C2=A0=0ASee me on the web at =0Awww.Lan= cair-IV.com=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Matt= Hapgood =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Saturda= y, January 5, 2013 2:33 PM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: stalls=0A =0A=0AJohnson,=0A= =0AI apologize for the lack of clarity. =C2=A0The data collection that I re= ferred to was for the purposes of simulating the aircraft, not certifying i= t. =C2=A0I appreciate your clarification. =C2=A0=0A=0AMatt=0A=0AOn Jan 5, 2= 013, at 11:19 AM, "Jarrett Johnson" wrote:=0A=0A=0A= Matt your saying you don't think the=0Alikes of a DC-9 or an MD-80, any mod= el of Lear [or any jet w/ rear engines above=0Athe wings or T-Tails] hasn't= been stalled to validate that turbulent airflow=0Adoesn't impact the engin= e performance or blanket the horizontal tail prior to=0Abeing certified by = the FAA for production??=C2=A0 I would agree that the=0Asimulator manufactu= res don't model flight in their simulators past the point of=0Astall as the= re are too many variables to do so accurately giving repeatable and=0Aconsi= stent results, but that doesn't mean that certified airframes [Jet or any= =0Aother type] aren't tested for stall and behavior while stalled.=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>Sites like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_BAC_One-Eleven_test_cra= sh=C2=A0would=0Alead me to believe they do in fact flight test aircraft to = these levels during=0Aflight testing of new commercial aircraft. I've found= other sites that talk=0Aabout the deep stall problems with and early Glost= er jet as well as Canadair,=0A727 and DC-9. The 727 incident caused Boeing = [according to this site] to swear=0Anever to build another T-tail aircraft.= I believe 'Stick Pushers' were brought=0Aabout due to testing of Dc-9's an= d their resultant like for deep stalls.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Something that seems t= o keep getting missed in this whole discussion is the=0Aterminology of "Sta= ll".=C2=A0Maybe this is where the confusion comes from=0Avarious=C2=A0peopl= e who [possibly]=C2=A0see=C2=A0things similarly but are=0Adescribing them d= ifferently. There are different levels of a stall. An "Approach=0Ato Stall"= is a much different thing that an full on "Aerodynamic Stall", a "Deep=0AS= tall" or an "Accelerated Stall".=0A>=C2=A0=0A>The definition of a=C2=A0Stal= l [or Aerodynamic Stall] is " a reduction in the lift coefficient generated= =0Aby a foil as angle of attack increases. This occurs when the critical=0A= angle of attack of the foil is exceeded. The critical angle of attack is=0A= typically about 15 degrees, but it may vary significantly depending on the= =0Afluid, foil, and Reynolds number."=0A[according to Wiki. ]=0A>=C2=A0=0A>= Another definition [Wiki again] is "stalls in fixed-wing flight are often= =0Aexperienced as a sudden reduction in lift as the pilot increases angle o= f attack=0Aand exceeds the critical angle of attack"=0A>=C2=A0=0A>A Deep st= all is generally defined as pushing the aircraft past the point of=0Astall = and/or holding it in a stalled condition such that the horizontal tail=0Aal= so becomes 'stalled'. It can be construed as causing the stalled/turbulent= =0Awake from the wing=C2=A0to blank the horizontal stabilizer. Another desc= ription=0Ais to dynamically stall the aircraft via maneuvering [think a "ta= il slide" type=0Amaneuver]. It is generally described as reached/developed = when the elevator is=0Ano longer effective, either by blanking of the horiz= ontal=C2=A0tail or loss of=0Aairflow over the tail. Typically deep stalls a= re pitch stable with a extremely=0Ahigh rate of decent and are [in the case= of blanked H-tails] un-recoverable.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Rather than re-write it, = I've cut and pasted an excerpt from the FAA pilots=0A"Airplane Handbook" [F= ound here]=C2=A0 http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handb= ook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-3of7.pdf=C2=A0on=0Athe topic of approach to stall.= =0A>=C2=A0=0A>_____________________________________________________________= ________=0A>=C2=A0=0A>APPROACHES TO STALLS (IMMINENT STALLS)=E2=80=94POWER-= ON OR=0APOWER-OFF=0A>An imminent stall is one in which the airplane is appr= oaching a=0Astall but is not allowed to completely stall. This stall maneuv= er is=0Aprimarily for practice in retaining (or regaining) full=0Acontrol o= f the airplane immediately upon recognizing that it is almost in a=0Astall = or that a stall is likely to occur if timely preventive action is not=0Atak= en. The practice of these stalls is of particular value in developing the= =0Apilot=E2=80=99s sense of feel for executing maneuvers in which maximum a= irplane=0Aperformance is required. These maneuvers require flight with the = airplane=0Aapproaching a stall, and recovery initiated before a stall occur= s. As in all=0Amaneuvers that involvesignificant changes in altitude or dir= ection, the pilot must=0Aensure that the area is clear of other air traffic= before executing the=0Amaneuver.=0A>=EF=BB=BF=0A>These stalls may be enter= ed and performed in the attitudes and=0Awith the same configuration of the = basic full stalls or other maneuvers=0Adescribed in this chapter. However, = instead of allowing a complete stall,=0Awhen=0A>the first buffeting or deca= y of control effectiveness is noted,=0Athe angle of attack must be reduced = immediately by releasing the back-elevator=0Apressure and applying whatever= additional power is necessary. Since the=0A>airplane will not be completel= y stalled, the pitch attitude needs=0Ato be decreased only to a point where= minimum controllable airspeed is attained=0Aor until adequate control effe= ctiveness is regained. The pilot must promptly=0Arecognize the indication o= f a stall and take timely, positive control action to=0Aprevent a full stal= l. Performance is unsatisfactory if a full stall occurs, if=0Aan excessivel= y low pitch attitude is attained, or if the pilot fails to take=0Atimely ac= tion to avoid excessive airspeed, excessive loss of altitude, or a=0Aspin.= =0A>=EF=BB=BF=0A>=EF=BB=BF_________________________________________________= ______________=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Therefore when I say that I've had to demonstra= te approach to stall and=0Arecovery in the turbo-prop twin that I fly, I me= an.. reduce speed to the first=0Asign of stall [horn and buffet in my case]= and then recover. However, in doing=0Athis maneuver everything is dynamic,= at flight idle with full flaps=C2=A0I'm=0Alosing several knots=C2=A0per se= cond so, while I may get confirmation of the=0Aapproach to stall and initia= te recover [hold the pitch angle and increase power]=0Athe time required to= react and the engines to respond, allows the aircraft to=0Aget past the 'i= nitial' state of the stall and reach some form of a stalled=0Acondition [as= noted by the several hundred fpm decent that occurs while I'm=0Apitched at= +10deg deck angle]. I'm pretty sure this is typical of anyone doing=0Atrai= ning of this sort=C2=A0per discussion with my check pilot.=C2=A0In this=0Aa= irframe [C425]=C2=A0it's a non-event as it behaves very well in this phase = of=0Aflight.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>The same applies to simulators, I was just in one= [a full motion=0Asimulator]=C2=A0like 1.5yrs ago and we did approach to st= alls in it as well,=0Athat isn't to say that we 'stalled the aircraft' or t= hat I'm saying a simulator=0Awill 'simulate' the aerodynamics of a full sta= ll or a deep stall, simply that=0Athe simulator can 'simulate accurately' t= he effects of an approach to stall such=0Athat the pilot can effectively re= cognise and take appropriate action to=0Aavoid/(recover from)=C2=A0the stal= l [in the bigger 'stuff' this is identified at=0A'stick shaker']. In my com= ment [as you've clipped below] I didn't differentiate=0Athe 'approach to st= all' as it pertains to simulators clearly, I guess I need to=0Aproof-read m= y writing better LOL.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Being able to fly in these scenarios has= another advantage, for those who=0Aflying w/ TWAS systems. In our aircraft= /company the procedure when a TWAS alert=0Ais issued, the procedure=C2=A0is= to "pitch to stick shaker", increase to max=0Atorque, verify speed reducti= on to Vx=C2=A0and hold this pitch angle/airspeedfor=0Aclimb or until the em= ergency is resolved".=C2=A0 If you don't know at what speed=0Athat is [due = to not flight testing your airframe to those speeds], how are you=0Agoing t= o "fly" to it?=C2=A0 How would you even practice this maneuver w/out=0Aknow= ing your speeds or having the proper alerting systems [a properly calibrate= d=0Astall warning [AOA] system, bitching Betty etc].=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Fwiw=0A>= =C2=A0=0A>Jarrett Johnson=0A>235/320=C2=A0 55% [and holding]=0A>=C2=A0=0A>= =C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:38:44 -0500, Matt Hapgood=0A wrote:=0A>=0A> =0A>>Off-topic technical comment.= =C2=A0I'm no expert, but I have taken=0Aan airplane (a twin turbo-prop) th= rough the data collection process for stall=0Abuffets and taken a simulator= through FAA approval (high level, full motion). =0A=C2=A0The aircraft was = definitely not stalled, nor does the simulator simulate a=0Astall. =C2=A0= =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Years ago I asked the sim experts (aero engineers) why they = didn't=0Amodel the stall phase. =C2=A0Their short and simple explanation wh= en something=0Alike this: =C2=A0If you make a reasonably good paper airplan= e and throw it in=0Athe air, you can reasonably model it's flight. =C2=A0No= w try throwing an=0Aunfolded sheet of paper in the air. =C2=A0Got any idea = where it's gonna go or=0Awhat it's gonna do? =C2=A0That's what it would be = like trying to model a=0Astall.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Matt=0A>>=0A>>From: Jarrett J= ohnson =0A>>Reply-To: Lancair List =0A>>Date: Friday,=0AJanuary 4, 2013 2:01 PM=0A>>To: Lancair List =0A>>Subject: [LML]=0ARe: stalls=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>--= - 4-The thought that Jets aren't=C2=A0tested in slow flight [and slower] is= =0Afalse as well, all of these jets are fully tested before being signed of= f an=0A'released' for production. All pilots in training then fly these man= euvers while=0Adoing type training [in simulators which duplicate the teste= d results]. If you=0Athink that once you get your Airline Transport=C2=A0Li= cense your done w/=0Astall/approach to stall=C2=A0training for the rest of = your flying career, your=0Amistaken.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=0A> ---2079400718-1802294551-1357415323=:30870 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I remember the day, Way back whe= n, our chief pilot was suspended by the FAA for doing an approach to stall = (shaker) - in a 747- in the pattern at Miami international. He was confiden= t it was perfectly safe.--- I was not on board.

<= /div>
 
Charlie K.
 
See me= on the web at
 
<= div>
From:= Matt Hapgood <mehapgood@gmail.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 2:33 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

=0A
Johnson,
<= br>
I apologize for the lack of clarity.  The data collectio= n that I referred to was for the purposes of simulating the aircraft, not c= ertifying it.  I appreciate your clarification.  

M= att

On Jan 5, 2013, at 11:19 AM, "Jarrett Johnson" <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wrote:
Matt your saying you don't think the=0Alikes of a D= C-9 or an MD-80, any model of Lear [or any jet w/ rear engines above=0Athe = wings or T-Tails] hasn't been stalled to validate that turbulent airflow=0A= doesn't impact the engine performance or blanket the horizontal tail prior = to=0Abeing certified by the FAA for production??  I would agree that t= he=0Asimulator manufactures don't model flight in their simulators past the= point of=0Astall as there are too many variables to do so accurately givin= g repeatable and=0Aconsistent results, but that doesn't mean that certified= airframes [Jet or any=0Aother type] aren't tested for stall and behavior w= hile stalled.
=0A
 
=0A
Sites like http://en.wikiped= ia.org/wiki/1963_BAC_One-Eleven_test_crash would=0Alead me to believe = they do in fact flight test aircraft to these levels during=0Aflight testin= g of new commercial aircraft. I've found other sites that talk=0Aabout the = deep stall problems with and early Gloster jet as well as Canadair,=0A727 a= nd DC-9. The 727 incident caused Boeing [according to this site] to swear= =0Anever to build another T-tail aircraft. I believe 'Stick Pushers' were b= rought=0Aabout due to testing of Dc-9's and their resultant like for deep s= talls.
=0A
 
=0A
Something that seems to keep gettin= g missed in this whole discussion is the=0Aterminology of "Stall". May= be this is where the confusion comes from=0Avarious people who [possib= ly] see things similarly but are=0Adescribing them differently. T= here are different levels of a stall. An "Approach=0Ato Stall" is a much di= fferent thing that an full on "Aerodynamic Stall", a "Deep=0AStall" or an "= Accelerated Stall".
=0A
 
=0A
The definition of a&nb= sp;Stall [or Aerodynamic Stall] is " a reduction in the=0Alift coefficient generated=0Aby a foil as angle of attack=0Aincreases. This occurs when the <= a rel=3D"nofollow" title=3D"Angle of attack" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http= ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack#Critical_angle_of_attack">critical= =0Aangle of attack of the foil is exceeded. The critical angle of attac= k is=0Atypically about 15 degrees, but it may vary significantly depending = on the=0Afluid, foil, and Reynol= ds number."=0A[according to Wiki. ]
=0A
 
=0A
An= other definition [Wiki again] is "stalls in fixed-wing flight are often=0Ae= xperienced as a sudden reduction in lift as the pilot increases angle of at= tack=0Aand exceeds the critical angle of attack"
=0A
 
= =0A
A Deep stall is generally defined as pushing the aircraft past the = point of=0Astall and/or holding it in a stalled condition such that the hor= izontal tail=0Aalso becomes 'stalled'. It can be construed as causing the s= talled/turbulent=0Awake from the wing to blank the horizontal stabiliz= er. Another description=0Ais to dynamically stall the aircraft via maneuver= ing [think a "tail slide" type=0Amaneuver]. It is generally described as re= ached/developed when the elevator is=0Ano longer effective, either by blank= ing of the horizontal tail or loss of=0Aairflow over the tail. Typical= ly deep stalls are pitch stable with a extremely=0Ahigh rate of decent and = are [in the case of blanked H-tails] un-recoverable.
=0A
 =0A
Rather than re-write it, I've cut and pasted an excerpt from the= FAA pilots=0A"Airplane Handbook" [Found here]  http://www.faa.gov/lib= rary/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-3of7.pdf o= n=0Athe topic of approach to stall.
=0A
 
=0A
______= _______________________________________________________________
=0A 
=0A
=0A
=0A
APPROACHES TO STALLS (IM= MINENT STALLS)=E2=80=94POWER-ON OR=0APOWER-OFF
=0A<= /font>
An imminent stall is one in which the air= plane is approaching a=0Astall but is not allowed to completely stall. This stall maneuver is=0Aprimarily for practice in retaining (or regaining) full=0Acontrol of the airplane immediately upon = recognizing that it is almost in a=0Astall or that a stall is likely to occ= ur if timely preventive action is not=0Ataken. The practice of these stalls= is of particular value in developing the=0Apilot=E2=80=99s sense of feel f= or executing maneuvers in which maximum airplane=0Aperformance is required.= These maneuvers require flight with the airplane=0Aapproaching a stall, an= d recovery initiated before a stall occurs. As in all=0Amaneuvers that invo= lve
=0A
significant changes in altit= ude or direction, the pilot must=0Aensure that the area is clear of other a= ir traffic before executing the=0Amaneuver.
=0A
= =EF=BB=BF
=0A
These sta= lls may be entered and performed in the attitudes and=0Awith the same confi= guration of the basic full stalls or other maneuvers=0Adescribed in this ch= apter. However, instead of allowing a complete stall,=0Awhen
=0A
the first buffeting or decay of control effectiveness is note= d,=0Athe angle of attack must be reduced immediately by releasing the back-= elevator=0Apressure and applying whatever additional power is necessary. Si= nce the
=0A
airplane will not be completely stalled= , the pitch attitude needs=0Ato be decreased only to a point where minimum = controllable airspeed is attained=0Aor until adequate control effectiveness= is regained. The pilot must promptly=0Arecognize the indication of a stall= and take timely, positive control action to=0Aprevent a full stall. Perfor= mance is unsatisfactory if a full stall occurs, if=0Aan excessively low pit= ch attitude is attained, or if the pilot fails to take=0Atimely action to a= void excessive airspeed, excessive loss of altitude, or a=0Aspin.
=0A<= div align=3D"left">=EF=BB=BF
=0A
=EF=BB=BF_______________________________= ________________________________
=0A=0A
 
=0ATherefore when I say that I've had to demonstrate approach to stall and=0A= recovery in the turbo-prop twin that I fly, I mean.. reduce speed to the fi= rst=0Asign of stall [horn and buffet in my case] and then recover. However,= in doing=0Athis maneuver everything is dynamic, at flight idle with full f= laps I'm=0Alosing several knots per second so, while I may get co= nfirmation of the=0Aapproach to stall and initiate recover [hold the pitch = angle and increase power]=0Athe time required to react and the engines to r= espond, allows the aircraft to=0Aget past the 'initial' state of the stall = and reach some form of a stalled=0Acondition [as noted by the several hundr= ed fpm decent that occurs while I'm=0Apitched at +10deg deck angle]. I'm pr= etty sure this is typical of anyone doing=0Atraining of this sort per = discussion with my check pilot. In this=0Aairframe [C425] it's a = non-event as it behaves very well in this phase of=0Aflight.
=0A
&= nbsp;
=0A
The same applies to simulators, I was just in one [a ful= l motion=0Asimulator] like 1.5yrs ago and we did approach to stalls in= it as well,=0Athat isn't to say that we 'stalled the aircraft' or that I'm= saying a simulator=0Awill 'simulate' the aerodynamics of a full stall or a= deep stall, simply that=0Athe simulator can 'simulate accurately' the effe= cts of an approach to stall such=0Athat the pilot can effectively recognise= and take appropriate action to=0Aavoid/(recover from) the stall [in t= he bigger 'stuff' this is identified at=0A'stick shaker']. In my comment [a= s you've clipped below] I didn't differentiate=0Athe 'approach to stall' as= it pertains to simulators clearly, I guess I need to=0Aproof-read my writi= ng better LOL.
=0A
 
=0A
Being able to fly in these = scenarios has another advantage, for those who=0Aflying w/ TWAS systems. In= our aircraft/company the procedure when a TWAS alert=0Ais issued, the proc= edure is to "pitch to stick shaker", increase to max=0Atorque, verify = speed reduction to Vx and hold this pitch angle/airspeedfor=0Aclimb or= until the emergency is resolved".  If you don't know at what speed=0A= that is [due to not flight testing your airframe to those speeds], how are = you=0Agoing to "fly" to it?  How would you even practice this maneuver= w/out=0Aknowing your speeds or having the proper alerting systems [a prope= rly calibrated=0Astall warning [AOA] system, bitching Betty etc].
=0A<= div> 
=0A
Fwiw
=0A
 
=0A
Jarrett Johns= on
=0A
235/320  55% [and holding]
=0A
 
= =0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:38:4= 4 -0500, Matt Hapgood=0A<matt.hapgood@alumni.duke.edu> wrote:
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A
--- 4-The thought that Jets aren't teste= d in slow flight [and slower] is=0Afalse as well, all of these jets are ful= ly tested before being signed off an=0A'released' for production. All pilot= s in training then fly these maneuvers while=0Adoing type training [in simu= lators which duplicate the tested results]. If you=0Athink that once you ge= t your Airline Transport License your done w/=0Astall/approach to stal= l training for the rest of your flying career, your=0Amistaken.
= =0A
 
=0A

 
=0A


<= /div> ---2079400718-1802294551-1357415323=:30870--