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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 11:19:58 -0500
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From: "Dr. Weinsweig" <weinsweigd@tsnci.com>
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
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I have TKS on my propjet.  we installed it prior to first flight so i
can't say how it affected the flight characteristics of my plane.  colyn
apparently had been told that the tks can adversely affect the stall on
our wings.  we actually had len fox come to test fly my plane to better
evaluate the stall/flight characteristics with tks but the weather did
not cooperate and after a couple of days he had to leave.

i hired test pilots to do all of my 40 hour flyoff/flight testing and
have flown with numerous instructors in my plane.  none of them have had
anything negative to say about the flight characteristics and at least
one has told me that my plane is very smooth compared to others- whether
this has anything to do with tks or just a good build i do not know.

in regard to stalls, i remember a story by a well known and excellent
lancair instructor giving slow speed instruction in a iv when in a split
second the plane entered a spin.  it took everything the instructor knew
to get out of the spin but finally did.  i heard this story before i
ever bought my kit.  since then i took a 15 aerobatic course, bought an
extra 300l and now own a pitts.  i have over 200 aerobatic hours-not a
lot-but enough to know how to get out of a spin.  i personally see no
reason to push the envelope in a plane such as a lancair iv.  my plane
and i are perfectly happy practicing slow flight at 90kias dirty but
when i want to get closer to stall i get in my pitts.  if you wanna spin
go take unusual attitude/aerobatics courses and buy a pitts(which can be
bought for the price of a middle of the road car).  you will learn the
instincts on how to get out of the stall/spin without the unecessary
risk.

mack trucks don't race at nascar.  lancair iv's are not made to spin
and don't do it well-just my humble opinion.

david

>>> toddlong1@gmail.com 1/4/2013 1:50 AM >>>
For those that have added either TKS or the Therma Wing how has the
change in the leading edge affected slow speed handling?

Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone.

On Jan 3, 2013, at 17:03, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:

> Bill,
> 
> I respectfully disagree with just about everything you are saying
here. Would you please contact me offline or give me you number so I can
call you?
> 
> Jeff Edwards
> 324-308-6719 cell
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
> To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm
> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
> 
> We are on the same page here, Colyn.
>  
> You are saying that you should be trained to fly your airplane and so
am I.  The ability to recognize and recover from a stall is taught
before a new pilot is ever allowed to solo.  That ability is critical. 
Same with the LIV.  You can not get a plane on the ground without
stalling it so you are going to encounter the characteristics of a stall
every time you land.  If that starts to happen when you are too high,
you can die.
>  
> Bill
>  
> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf
Of Colyn Case
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM
> To: lml@lancaironline.net 
> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
>  
> Bill, 
>  
> No you didn't get it.
>  
> You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide
range of experience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range
of CG's, wing incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec.  
It is a statistical fact that the accident rate among these permutations
of pilots and aircraft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times
worse per operational hour than airline operation.   Notably solo pilots
with limited make/model experience fare much worse.
>  
> Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing
my stall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition
of the airplane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block
raked off the primer from my leading edge to fix it.   Similarly, when
Len was testing the factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out
because it wouldn't recover from a spin the way the prototype (built to
the same specs) did.   That's how little a change affects flight
behavior.   
>  
> You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to
execute and recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly.   However,
unless you can accurately predict that every pilot on this list
operating with whatever aircraft, however configured,  with no prior
experience doing so, will have a safe outcome the first time performing
this maneuver alone, then I would recommend against provoking all of
them to do so.
>  
> Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that
shows up is that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a
lot better than those that don't.   That is why I take issue with
recommendations to experiment on your own.   By all means, be familiar
with your airplane, but give us a hand with the safety situation and get
trained in this make/model.
>  
> Colyn
>   
> On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
> 
> 
> No, I got it.  I just don’t get all this talk about Lancairs being
deadly in a stall.  It seems you are trying to scare Lancair drivers
into foregoing stall training.  That, in my opinion, will kill more
people than learning to fly their planes.  I understand the reason for
no spins and if you know how to recover your plane from an incipient
stall, there should never be a reason to recover from a spin.
> But flying a plane that you are afraid to, and have never, stalled is
just plane dumb!
>  
> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf
Of Colyn Case
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:33 AM
> To: lml@lancaironline.net 
> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
>  
> I guess you didn't get my point...
>  
> On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Because nobody wants to die alone??
>  
> If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you
probably shouldn’t be flying it solo.
>  
>  
> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf
Of Colyn Case
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM
> To: lml@lancaironline.net 
> Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
>  
> aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair has in common with a
Zlin.    One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority.   I'm
all in favor of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate
everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and doing it....
>  
> On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:
>  
> Why not?
> If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to
recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane
does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight.
In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and
in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you
screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every
airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking
etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My
ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what
I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a
good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your
life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's 
> Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy.....
> Sorry about that but
> My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes
always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane,
learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10  knots
and come and land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55,
Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc.
> My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA"
<superdmp@sonic.net> wrote:
>> I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls
altogether in my 360.  After reading the stall and stall spin accident
information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I
stay in ground effect for the half second it takes to make it into the
green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my
flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above
the threshold.  During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical
slow flight speed.  Too many variables in a home built airplane with no
precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think it is,
but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible
extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain).
>>  
>> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf
Of Ed Gray
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM
>> To: lml@lancaironline.net 
>> Subject: [LML] stalls
>> Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.  If you are
flying low under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified  safety
pilot
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
>> Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date:
12/23/12
>> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 
>  
>  
>