X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:34:28 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.164] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTP id 5354770 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:30:06 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.164; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.197]) by imr-mb01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0ICTPDY002224 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:29:25 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.126] (24-107-65-42.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.65.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id DF7BEE0000A2; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:29:24 -0500 (EST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8L1) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-12-690214171 X-Original-Message-Id: <895D33DA-0084-480A-A931-B4747A1F0F6A@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8L1) From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LSI X-Original-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:29:18 -0600 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:509305856:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c54f16bb2444e3 X-AOL-IP: 24.107.65.42 --Apple-Mail-12-690214171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Terrence, You are welcome.=20 Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jan 18, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Terrence O'Neill wrote: > Jeff, >=20 > Many thanks. Thanks for the info, and much appreciated. > I should always do what Klaus (experience) suggests. ..=20 >=20 > Terrence >=20 >=20 > On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:21 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: >=20 >> Sure and while you are at it please read this accident report--http://dms= .ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/olqrjt45jkgiqlzaq5gle03h1/I01172012120000= .pdf >> =20 >> NTSB Identification: LAX08LA066 >> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation >> Accident occurred Tuesday, February 26, 2008 in Murrieta/Temecu, CA >> Probable Cause Approval Date: 05/06/2009 >> Aircraft: Bartle Lancair IV-P, registration: N811HB >> Injuries: 3 Serious,1 Uninjured. >> The pilot reported that the engine lost power while on approach for landi= ng in the amateur-built experimental airplane. Unable to reach the airport, t= he pilot initiated a forced landing in hilly desert terrain resulting in str= uctural damage to the airframe. Inspection of the modified engine revealed t= hat it was equipped with an electronic ignition system consisting of two cap= acitive discharge modules with direct crank sensors. Two five-amp fuses in t= he electrical circuit for the ignition system were found blown. Inspection o= f the electrical system found no failures of the physical airplane wiring. T= he pilot, who built the airplane, stated that he designed the ignition syste= m's electrical circuit with the intention of providing electrical redundancy= to the ignition system. Examination and testing of the design as installed d= emonstrated that a minor voltage differential between the main and redundant= power source created a condition that routed the current flow for both igni= tion sources through a single fuse, resulting in a single point of failure. A= ccording to the ignition manufacturer, the recommended wiring configuration t= hat would allow ignition power redundancy did not include the addition of a c= ommon bus bar as was found on the accident airplane. The positioning of the a= utomotive fuses on the firewall prevented the pilot from accurately identify= ing the electrical failure. >> The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s)= of this accident as follows: >> A total loss of engine power while on approach due to the electrical over= load of a fuse caused by the builder's inadequate design and installation of= the electrical ignition system. >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Terrence O'Neill >> To: lml >> Sent: Tue, Jan 17, 2012 1:00 pm >> Subject: [LML] Re: Steam Gauge Backup >>=20 >> Hey! I recognize that attached schematic ... from Klaus. =20 >> It suggests using the aux battery to power just one ignition, but I think= I'd rather have both ignitions and put in a heavier 9AH battery. =20 >> How? Would this work? Delete the power select switch, connect the power s= elect terminals instead, add a second Schottky where the word MAIN is, and p= ut a (power select -- now) voltmeter switch between the existing lead and a s= econd lead from the voltmeter to the MAIN side of the added Schottky? >>=20 >> My fuzzy logic suggests that=20 >> If both alternators are out, the CB(s) will pop; electrical use reduced, a= nd then both batteries will power on longer. When the voltmeter starts down= , switching the voltmeter to read from either side of the second Schottky wo= uld tell whether the master battery is failed or not... and to land sooner? >>=20 >> Hmmm. More complicated than just adding a battery, breaker, diode and sw= itch. >> Maybe I could just add a battery, the diode and breaker, the second diode= , and delete the power select switch Klaus calls for? >>=20 >> Terrence >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Jan 17, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: >>=20 >>> Terrence, >>> =20 >>> Yes. You have jogged my creaky memory about the direct connect. And ye= s. See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/powerschottkydiodes.htm for the typ= e I use because of the low voltage drop. That is, it can be used to isolate= the backup battery from the main yet still be charged in flight. See attac= hment. >>> =20 >>> Scott >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> In a message dated 1/16/2012 1:42:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, troneil= l@charter.net writes: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Scott, >>>=20 >>> Ok. =20 >>> Since my LSI dual ignition and prop are hot direct from the battery, how= about just adding plus and minus separate lines from the 2nd battery to the= ignition and electric prop switches? >>> And, should I have Schottky diodes ... somewhere to keep the stby batter= y charged normally, yet isolate it in case of main battery shorts? >>> (Sorry for the simple questions... I'm electrically challenged.) >>>=20 >>> Terrence >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Jan 16, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Terrence, >>>> =20 >>>> If you have a dual LSI ignition, you should have a backup battery for o= ne of the ignitions. >>>> =20 >>>> Scott >>>> =20 >>>> In a message dated 1/16/2012 7:20:26 A.M. Central Standard Time, tronei= ll@charter.net writes: >>>> Brent, >>>>=20 >>>> here's mine. I also have my AOA vane on the wing. Have an Odyssey bat= tery, B&C alternator and a backup small standby alternator; and a Garmin 396= w/ its battery. >>>> Can't think of a senario where I couldn't maintain control if I lost al= l electrical, except 5 vdc for the LSI ignition. >>>> Considering adding an small backup battery in parallel, or just for ign= ition. =20 >>>> Comments invited. >>>>=20 >>>> Terrence >>>> L235/320 N211AL >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Jan 15, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Brent Regan wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> > Ed Gray writes: "I have no steam gage backups. With dual screens, ba= ckup batteries and dual ADHRS I feel that I have enough redundancy. Does an= yone have input or comment? This plane may be one of the first with no roun= d gauges anywhere."(sic) >>>> >=20 >>>> > Dead man flying. >>>> >=20 >>>> > Regards >>>> > Brent Regan >>>> >=20 >>>> > -- >>>> > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/Lis= t.html >>>>=20 >>>> <_panel1.jpeg> >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.= html >>>> -- >>>> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.= html >>>=20 >>> -- >>> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.h= tml >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-12-690214171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Terrence,

You a= re welcome. 

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 18, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net> wrote:

Jeff,

Many thanks= .  Thanks for the info, and much appreciated.
I should always= do what Klaus (experience) suggests. .. 

Terr= ence


On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:21 PM, vtailj= eff@aol.com wrote:

Sure and while you are at it please rea= d this accident report--http://dms.ntsb.g= ov/aviation/AccidentReports/olqrjt45jkgiqlzaq5gle03h1/I01172012120000.pdf
 
NTSB Identification: LAX08LA066
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, February 26, 2008 in Murrieta/Temecu, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 05/06/2009
Aircraft: Bartle Lancair IV-P, registration: N811HB
Injuries: 3 Serious,1 Uninjured.
The pilot= reported that the engine lost power while on approach for landing in the am= ateur-built experimental airplane. Unable to reach the airport, the pilot in= itiated a forced landing in hilly desert terrain resulting in structural dam= age to the airframe. Inspection of the modified engine revealed that it was e= quipped with an electronic ignition system consisting of two capacitive disc= harge modules with direct crank sensors. Two five-amp fuses in the electrica= l circuit for the ignition system were found blown. Inspection of the electr= ical system found no failures of the physical airplane wiring. The pilot, wh= o built the airplane, stated that he designed the ignition system's electric= al circuit with the intention of providing electrical redundancy to the igni= tion system. Examination and testing of the design as installed demonstrated= that a minor voltage differential between the main and redundant power sour= ce created a condition that routed the current flow for both ignition source= s through a single fuse, resulting in a single point of failure. According t= o the ignition manufacturer, the recommended wiring configuration that would= allow ignition power redundancy did not include the addition of a common bu= s bar as was found on the accident airplane. The positioning of the automoti= ve fuses on the firewall prevented the pilot from accurately identifying the= electrical failure.=20
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(= s) of this accident as follows:
A total loss of engine power while on approach due to the electrical overloa= d of a fuse caused by the builder's inadequate design and installation of th= e electrical ignition system.

-= ----Original Message-----
From: Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, Jan 17, 2012 1:00 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Steam Gauge Backup

Hey!  I r= ecognize that attached schematic ... from Klaus.  
It suggests using the aux battery to power just one ignition, but I thi= nk I'd rather have both ignitions and put in a heavier 9AH battery.  
How?  Would this work? Delete the power select switch, connect the= power select terminals instead, add a second Schottky where the word MAIN i= s, and put a (power select -- now) voltmeter switch between the existin= g lead and a second lead from the voltmeter to the MAIN side of the added Sc= hottky?

My fuzzy logic suggests that 
If both alternators are out, the CB(s) will pop; electrical use reduced= , and then both batteries will power on longer.  When the voltmeter sta= rts down, switching the voltmeter to read from either side of the second Sch= ottky would tell whether the master battery is failed or not... and to land s= ooner?

Hmmm.  More complicated than just adding a battery, breaker, diode= and switch.
Maybe I could just add a battery, the diode and breaker, the second dio= de,  and delete the power select switch Klaus calls for?

Terrence



On Jan 17, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:

Terrence,
 
Yes.  You have jogged my creaky memory about the direct connect.&n= bsp; And yes.  See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/powerschottkydiod= es.htm for the type I use because of the low voltage drop. = ; That is, it can be used to isolate the backup battery from the main yet st= ill be charged in flight.  See attachment.
 
Scott
 
 
In a message dated 1/16/2012 1:42:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, tr= oneill@charter.net writes:


Scott,=20

Ok.  
Since my LSI dual ignition and prop are hot direct from the battery, ho= w about just adding plus and minus separate lines from the 2nd battery to th= e ignition and electric prop switches?
And, should I have Schottky diodes ... somewhere to keep the stby batte= ry charged normally, yet isolate it in case of main battery shorts?
(Sorry for the simple questions... I'm electrically challenged.)

Terrence


On Jan 16, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Sky2high@ao= l.com wrote:

Terrence,
 
If you have a dual LSI ignition, you should have a backup battery for o= ne of the ignitions.
 
Scott
 
In a message dated 1/16/2012 7:20:26 A.M. Central Standard Time, troneill@charter.net writes:
Brent,

here's mine.  I also have my AOA vane on the wing.  Have an Odysse= y battery, B&C alternator and a backup small standby alternator; and a G= armin 396 w/ its battery.
Can't think of a senario where I couldn't maintain control if I lost all ele= ctrical, except 5 vdc for the LSI ignition.
Considering adding an small backup battery in parallel, or just for ignition= . 
Comments invited.

Terrence
L235/320 N211AL


On Jan 15, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Brent Regan wrote:

> Ed Gray writes: "I have no steam gage backups.  With dual screens,= backup batteries and dual ADHRS I feel that I have enough redundancy. = Does anyone have input or comment?  This plane may be one of the first= with no round gauges anywhere."(sic)
>
> Dead man flying.
>
> Regards
> Brent Regan
>
> --
> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

<_panel1.jpeg>

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