X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:48:33 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [205.186.160.203] (HELO server.rmcginc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5102669 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:47:44 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.186.160.203; envelope-from=r.rickard@rcginc-us.com Received: (qmail 9308 invoked from network); 24 Aug 2011 12:47:09 -0700 Received: from 24-107-105-58.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com (HELO ?192.168.1.3?) (24.107.105.58) by rmcomserver.com with SMTP; 24 Aug 2011 12:47:08 -0700 From: Bob Rickard Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_56255F77-F4BE-4FCA-AD69-08C9CEADD2D4" Subject: Re: [LML] How do I run lean of peak? X-Original-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:47:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <520EAB18-78D5-41B2-B8E9-39A85C35E604@rcginc-us.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) --Apple-Mail=_56255F77-F4BE-4FCA-AD69-08C9CEADD2D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Danny -=20 Then take the online course for less than half of that, and learn how to = save thousands of dollars by interpreting engine problems and learning = how to avoid them. It makes you very much safer - what is the ROI on = that? Even if you don't ever fly LOP its worth it. Bob R On Aug 24, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Danny Miller wrote: > Gary, et.al, > I certainly can=92t speak to what others are getting but I have GAMI = injectors and my engine has been flow balanced. On consistent 2.5 hour = flights from VA to MI I indicate about 8.5 to 8.8 gph. This is backed = up by the amount of fuel I replace in the tanks which is about 22 gal. =96= never been more but sometimes a little less. I fly at 2400 rpm and = whatever MP I can get (usually about 21=94) at 10,000 ft. So again, for = me, the expense of this $995 course just doesn=92t work out for my ROI. > =20 > Danny Miller > N 38=B0 43' 25.7" > W 77=B0 30' 38.6" > =20 > From: Gary Casey [mailto:casey.gary@yahoo.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 10:10 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: Re: How do I run lean of peak? > =20 > I won't comment on other aspects of LOP operation, as Walter pretty = much covered that. But I think the ROI calculations below are not = realistic. I flew behind an IO-360(Lyc) for many hours and, depending = on the power setting) the ROP fuel flow was more like 11 to 12 GPH. The = LOP number was, as Danny suggested, about 8.5. This was at about 12,000 = feet and 2500 rpm. Instead of the 0.5 GPH savings, it is more = realistically 1.5 and up to 2.5 GPH savings. That brings the break-even = in cost down to maybe 100 hours from 331. And that doesn't count the - = in my experience - doubled time between spark plug cleanings and = potentially longer time between oil changes. I run about 70 hours = instead of 50. Then there is the increased engine life because of lower = peak cylinder pressures and lower CHT's. Granted, you will take a = minute or two longer to get where you are going. My ES cruises at about = 174 LOP (12.3 GPH) and 180 ROP (15+ GPH). What's not to like? > Gary Csey > =20 > I=92m not convinced of the ROI for spending $995 on this course in my = particular case. As an example, for my LNC2 with an IO-360, if I burn 9 = gph running ROP and 8.5 gph running LOP (best case scenario), how long = does it take to recover the expense? To keep it simple, let=92s say I = spend $6/gal. So, that=92s $995 x gal/$6 / 0.5gph =3D 331.7 hrs, or = about 3 years of flying. So, the question becomes, is it worth all the = hub bub? Again, for me, I think not. For you guys with the high burn = rates, maybe so. But what is your actual hourly saving and is it worth = the additional stress on your engines for the potentially much lower = TBO? You decide and your mileage may vary. > =20 > Danny Miller Bob Rickard President, Rickard Consulting Group, Inc. r.rickard@rcginc-us.com --Apple-Mail=_56255F77-F4BE-4FCA-AD69-08C9CEADD2D4 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8118DCE3-03E8-40C4-8F5F-3D83E6DDD2C7" --Apple-Mail=_8118DCE3-03E8-40C4-8F5F-3D83E6DDD2C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Danny - 

Then take the = online course for less than half of that, and learn how to save = thousands of dollars by interpreting engine problems and learning how to = avoid them.  It makes you very much safer - what is the ROI on = that?  Even if you don't ever fly LOP its worth = it.

Bob R


On = Aug 24, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Danny Miller wrote:

Gary, = et.al,
I certainly can=92t speak to what = others are getting but I have GAMI injectors and my engine has been flow = balanced.  On consistent 2.5 hour flights from VA to MI I indicate = about 8.5 to 8.8 gph.  This is backed up by the amount of fuel I = replace in the tanks which is about 22 gal. =96 never been more but = sometimes a little less.  I fly at 2400 rpm and whatever MP I can = get (usually about 21=94) at 10,000 ft.  So again, for me, the = expense of this $995 course just doesn=92t work out for my = ROI.
Danny = Miller
N 38=B0 43' = 25.7"
W 77=B0 30' = 38.6"
From: Gary = Casey [mailto:casey.gary@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 = 10:10 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: Re: How do I run lean of = peak?
I = won't comment on other aspects of LOP operation, as Walter pretty much = covered that.  But I think the ROI calculations below are not = realistic.  I flew behind an IO-360(Lyc) for many hours and, = depending on the power setting) the ROP fuel flow was more like 11 to 12 = GPH.  The LOP number was, as Danny suggested, about 8.5.  This = was at about 12,000 feet and 2500 rpm.  Instead of the 0.5 GPH = savings, it is more realistically 1.5 and up to 2.5 GPH savings. =  That brings the break-even in cost down to maybe 100 hours from = 331.  And that doesn't count the - in my experience - doubled time = between spark plug cleanings and potentially longer time between oil = changes.  I run about 70 hours instead of 50.  Then there is = the increased engine life because of lower peak cylinder pressures and = lower CHT's.  Granted, you will take a minute or two longer to get = where you are going.  My ES cruises at about 174 LOP (12.3 GPH) and = 180 ROP (15+ GPH).  What's not to like?
I=92m not convinced of the ROI for spending $995 on this = course in my particular case.  As an example, for my LNC2 with an = IO-360, if I burn 9 gph running ROP and 8.5 gph running LOP (best case = scenario), how long does it take to recover the expense?  To keep = it simple, let=92s say I spend $6/gal.  So, that=92s $995 x gal/$6 = / 0.5gph =3D 331.7 hrs, or about 3 years of flying.  So, the = question becomes, is it worth all the hub bub?  Again, for me, I = think not.  For you guys with the high burn rates, maybe so.  = But what is your actual hourly saving and is it worth the additional = stress on your engines for the potentially much lower TBO?  You = decide and your mileage may vary.
 Danny = Miller

Bob Rickard
President, = Rickard Consulting Group, Inc.
<= br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

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