X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:20:03 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-da06.mx.aol.com ([205.188.169.203] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5051498 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:03:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.169.203; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.200]) by imr-da06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p6EC2mI9010590 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:02:48 -0400 Received: from core-mta005b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mta005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.234.145]) by mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 0E947E000081 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:02:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <17620.4c160d6f.3b5034e7@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: another Lancair X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_17620.4c160d6f.3b5034e7_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-AOL-IP: 24.15.17.119 X-Originating-IP: [24.15.17.119] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:521059968:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c84e1edae85698 --part1_17620.4c160d6f.3b5034e7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Randy, =20 Yep, that's another factor. Airplanes that don't fly are still counted in= =20 the fleet. Fleet size?????? I think that the FAA data is very wrong and= =20 that is why it is doing the required re-registration of all aircraft. In= =20 another two years they should have a more accurate count. =20 Grayhawk =20 =20 In a message dated 7/14/2011 6:50:06 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes: Grayhawk, The reason I say that is I see a lot of certified birds collecting dust at= =20 the field. Rows and rows of planes that rarely fly. Plenty of experimentals sitting in hangars when fuel is bloody $6 per=20 gallon too I guess. Still, the experimental world has a pulse, the certified ships seem to be= =20 sitting more... Just one mans observation .. I am a pilot and airplane builder so any opinion from me is suspect at all= =20 levels... Randy Snarr "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if= =20 not utterly impossible" -Simon Newcomb, 1902 --- On Tue, 7/12/11, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: From: Sky2high@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: another Lancair To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tuesday, July 12, 2011, 2:25 PM Randy, =20 Flying time is an incredibly inaccurate measure. Your situation is a=20 perfect example. If I wanted to build x-country time I would use the 150. = A 100=20 NM trip might take an hour in the 150, only 30 minutes in the 320 and=20 merely a 15 minute ballistic arc in a IV-P. The crash speed of the 320 is= =20 probably twice that of the 150. Hmmm, I could probably land the un-powere= d 150=20 on the flat roof of the Menard's Distribution Center - but I would need a= =20 bit more room for the 320. =20 There are many more opportunities for "Oops!" in a retractable gear high= =20 performance aircraft than in a slow, error forgiving trainer. Uh, the=20 Malibu had quite a kill rate (Doc killer) when operated by, uh, pilots who= se=20 education and training focused on gall bladders, rectums, etc. rather than= =20 upset recovery, thunderstorm avoidance, yada, yada. =20 Grayhawk =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 7/12/2011 9:30:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes: Interesting stats. One factor I did not see is the amount of flying each group does. I have a= =20 plane in each group and the certified model in my 2 plane fleet does =20 1/20th of the flying as my experimental model. Most owners do not have 2 p= lanes=20 however, I believe there are more flight hours per plane for experimentals= =20 that certifieds... That is a complete guess but I would like to see this comparrison based= =20 on flight hours... Thanks for sharing.. Randy Snarr N694RS 235/320 N4442U Cessna 150 in the hangar with dust on it... "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if= =20 not utterly impossible" -Simon Newcomb, 1902 --- On Mon, 7/11/11, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: From: Sky2high@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: another Lancair To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Monday, July 11, 2011, 7:44 AM Jeff, =20 I couldn't find anything useful either in a scan of news letters or under= =20 the button "safety". The Safety Wire article was too small to read and is= =20 missing page 3. How ridiculous that the EAA reserved safety info only fo= r=20 counselors. Oh well......... =20 I have attached Lee Metcalf's Lancair accident analyses thru 2005 and the= =20 copy of an article I had laying around that points out why one should be= =20 suspicious of "experimental" accident stats. Perhaps the community will= =20 find these interesting. =20 Scott =20 =20 In a message dated 7/10/2011 2:18:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes: Scott, The summary and white paper is on the web site. lobo is now deeply=20 involved in other EAA and FAA aviation safety projects.=20 Best regards, Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:34 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: Jeff, =20 Any analysis is of interest to all - especially those that can't make your= =20 session at OSH. Perhaps some summary at the LOBO site? =20 Scott Krueger =20 =20 In a message dated 7/8/2011 7:40:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes: Mark, =20 Yes, LOBO tracks these matters. Have you ever been to Oshkosh Airventure?= =20 These accidents are discussed in detail there. Based on your comments =20 about the engines you would be surprised. In many cases it was not the eng= ine. =20 Jeff Edwards -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:59 pm Subject: [LML] Re: another Lancair Steve, =20 I agree, the pilot community lost another great guy. Even if he was a=20 jerk, we still need to solve this riddle. Is LOBO following up on each o= f=20 these crashes to learn what the experts determine to be the cause(s)? If= =20 not, we'll continue to be having these conversations until we eventually r= un=20 out of pilots, or airplanes. Mark=20 On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Steve Colwell =20 wrote: =20 =20 =20 I would sure would like to know why all of these "certified engines" are= =20 quitting on takeoff. =20 =20 =20 Mark S.=20 Maybe the engine driven fuel pump is failing. We are running low boost= =20 continuously in case the engine pump fails and to address fuel pressure=20 issues at altitude, hot fuel, vapor lock and other problems. =20 I understand the engine will not make full power on low boost (reduce=20 manifold pressure and settle for less power?) =20 Or, it might quit if high boost is on and the mixture is not adjusted. = =20 Since engine driven pump failure, heat and altitude all affect fuel=20 delivery, it would seem using the low boost continuously could solve or ma= ke=20 these problems manageable. =20 Dr. Lyle Koen did our last two physicals. He was a very likeable guy who= =20 built one of the early IV=E2=80=99s and had over 1000 hours on it. We tal= ked to=20 him about joining LOBO and coming to the Branson Fly-In. =20 Given the more knowledgeable than usual witness account, could training= =20 have changed this outcome? Steve Legacy IO550 =20 =3D -----Inline Attachment Follows----- -- For archives and unsub=20 _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html_ (http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/lml/List.html)=20 --part1_17620.4c160d6f.3b5034e7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Randy,
 
Yep, that's another factor.  Airplanes that don't fly are still= =20 counted in the fleet.  Fleet size??????  I think that the FAA dat= a is=20 very wrong and that is why it is doing the required re-registration of all= =20 aircraft.  In another two years they should have a more accurate=20 count.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 7/14/2011 6:50:06 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes:
=
Grayhawk,
The reason I say that is I see a lot of= =20 certified birds collecting dust at the field. Rows and rows of plan= es=20 that rarely fly.
Plenty of experimentals sitting in hangars when= fuel=20 is bloody $6 per gallon too I guess.

Still, the experimental= =20 world has a pulse, the certified ships seem to be sitting=20 more...

Just one mans observation ..
I am a pilot and air= plane=20 builder so any opinion from me is suspect at all levels...
Randy= =20 Snarr

"Flight by machines= =20 heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly= =20 impossible"
-Simon Newcomb, 1902

--- On Tue,=20 7/12/11, Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com> wrote= :

From:=20 Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com>
Subject: [LML] Re:= =20 another Lancair
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tuesday, Ju= ly=20 12, 2011, 2:25 PM

Randy,
 
Flying time is an incredibly inaccurate measure. Your situat= ion=20 is a perfect example. If I wanted to build x-country time I would= use=20 the 150.  A 100 NM trip might take an hour in the 150, only = 30=20 minutes in the 320 and merely a 15 minute ballistic arc in a=20 IV-P.  The crash speed of the 320 is probably twice tha= t of=20 the 150.  Hmmm, I could probably land the un-powered 15= 0 on=20 the flat roof of the Menard's Distribution Center - but I wo= uld=20 need a bit more room for the 320.
 
There are many more opportunities for "Oops!" in a retractab= le=20 gear high performance aircraft than in a slow, error forgivi= ng=20 trainer.  Uh, the Malibu had quite a kill rate (Doc killer) = when=20 operated by, uh, pilots whose education and training focused on g= all=20 bladders, rectums, etc. rather than upset recovery, thunderstorm= =20 avoidance, yada, yada.
 
Grayhawk
 
 
In a message dated 7/12/2011 9:30:24 A.M. Central Daylight T= ime,=20 randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes:
Interesting stats.
One factor I did not= see=20 is the amount of flying each group does. I have a plane i= n=20 each group and the certified model in my 2 plane fleet do= es=20 1/20th of the flying as my experimental model. Most owner= s do=20 not have 2 planes however, I believe there are more fligh= t=20 hours per plane for experimentals that certifieds...
T= hat=20 is a complete guess but I would like to see this comparri= son=20 based on flight hours...
Thanks for sharing..
Randy= =20 Snarr

N694RS
235/320

N4442U Cessna 150 i= n the=20 hangar with dust on it...

"Flight by machines heavier = than=20 air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly=20 impossible"
-Simon Newcomb, 1902

--- On= =20 Mon, 7/11/11, Sky2high@aol.com=20 <Sky2high@aol.com> wrote:

From:=20 Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com>
Subject: [= LML]=20 Re: another Lancair
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Dat= e:=20 Monday, July 11, 2011, 7:44 AM

Jeff,
 
I couldn't find anything useful either in a scan o= f=20 news letters or under the button "safety".  The Sa= fety=20 Wire article was too small to read and is missing page= =20 3.  How ridiculous that the EAA reserved safety=20 info only for counselors.  Oh=20 well.........
 
I have attached Lee Metcalf's Lancair accident ana= lyses=20 thru 2005 and the copy of an article I had laying aroun= d=20 that points out why one should be suspicious = of=20 "experimental" accident stats.  Perhaps the commun= ity=20 will find these interesting.
 
Scott
 
In a message dated 7/10/2011 2:18:42 P.M. Central= =20 Daylight Time, vtailjeff@aol.com writes:
Scott,

The summary and white paper is on the web site. = lobo=20 is now deeply involved in other EAA and FAA aviation= =20 safety projects. 

Best regards,

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:34 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:

Jeff,
 
Any analysis is of interest to all - especiall= y=20 those that can't make your session at OSH.  Pe= rhaps=20 some summary at the LOBO site?
 
Scott Krueger
 
In a message dated 7/8/2011 7:40:41 A.M. Centr= al=20 Daylight Time, vtailjeff@aol.com writes:
Mark,
 
Yes, LOBO tracks these matters. Have you eve= r=20 been to Oshkosh Airventure? These accidents are= =20 discussed in detail there. Based on your comments= =20 about the engines you would be surprised. In many= =20 cases it was not the engine.
 
Jeff Edwards



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Sent:= Thu,=20 Jul 7, 2011 4:59 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: another= =20 Lancair

Steve, =20

I agree, the pilot community lost another gr= eat=20 guy.  Even if he was a jerk, we still need t= o=20 solve this riddle.  Is LOBO following up on = each=20 of these crashes to learn what the experts determ= ine=20 to be the cause(s)?  If not, we'll continue = to be=20 having these conversations until we eventually ru= n out=20 of pilots, or airplanes.

Mark 

On Wed, Jul = 6, 2011=20 at 1:05 PM, Steve Colwell <mcmess1919@yahoo.com>=20 wrote:
&nb= sp;
I would s= ure=20 would like to know why all of these "certified= =20 engines" are quitting on takeoff.=20  
=  
Mark=20 S. 
Maybe= the=20 engine driven fuel pump is failing.  We ar= e=20 running low boost continuously in case the engi= ne=20 pump fails and to address fuel pressure issues = at=20 altitude, hot fuel, vapor lock and other proble= ms.=20  
I und= erstand=20 the engine will not make full power on low boos= t=20 (reduce manifold pressure and settle for less= =20 power?)   
Or, i= t might=20 quit if high boost is on and the mixture is not= =20 adjusted.   
Since= engine=20 driven pump failure, heat and altitude all affe= ct=20 fuel delivery, it would seem using the low boos= t=20 continuously could solve or make these problems= =20 manageable.  
Dr. L= yle=20 Koen did our last two physicals.  He was a= very=20 likeable guy who built one of the early IV=E2= =80=99s and had=20 over 1000 hours on it.  We talked to him a= bout=20 joining LOBO and coming to the Branson Fly-In.&= nbsp;=20
Given= the=20 more knowledgeable than usual witness account, = could=20 training have changed this=20 outcome?
Steve=  =20 Legacy IO550
&nb= sp;

= =3D=
-----Inline=20 Attachment Follows-----

--
For archives a= nd=20 unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= lml/List.html
 --part1_17620.4c160d6f.3b5034e7_boundary--