Tim,

 

I'm 70 and there is no way I could truthfully fill out that form.  Most of the people, businesses, managers, locations and phone numbers have, uh, expired, ceased to operate, expired, were rebuilt and required contact with an operator...................

 

The penalties for "inaccuracies" are worse than those listed on the FAA medical.

 

However, if this form is properly completed, you should also receive a national permit allowing you to carry a concealed weapon.

 

Arrggh, our kids and grandkids will not be able to understand the concept of "freedom."  

 

Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk

 

PS Luckily my passport doesn't "expire" until 2016. 

 

PPS I have asked my dog's vet to implant me with a RFID capsule so that I can be automatically routed to the appropriate disposal container when the time comes.

 

I don't want to try to take y'all into the weeds too far,
but this thread has been very enlightening and maddening
to think of, and this week I also saw this link (see link
below) regarding changes to passport applications they're
trying to push through.  It's just amazing that we allow
our liberties to be infringed on in so many aspects, with
unreasonable levels of regulation.
I stuck a quote from the link under the link for you,
but it may be an interesting read, for those of you who
travel with your plane and use your passport occasionally.

http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/state-dept-wants-to-make-it-harder-to-get-a-passport/

The U.S. Department of State is proposing a new Biographical
Questionnaire for some passport applicants: The proposed new  Form
DS-5513 asks for all addresses since birth; lifetime employment history
including employers’ and supervisors names, addresses, and telephone
numbers; personal details of all siblings; mother’s address one year
prior to your birth; any “religious ceremony” around the time of birth;
and a variety of other information.  According to the proposed form,
“failure to provide the information requested may result in … the denial
of your U.S. passport application.”


Tim


On 5/3/2011 6:53 AM, swaid rahn wrote:
> Hello All,
>   Rick and Jeff, could you please fwd a copy of your letters and a copy
> of the CBP Guidelines. I would like to post them at our local airports
> around Savannah Ga. and make a presentation at our EAA Chapter meeting
> about our freedom encroachments.
> Thanks,
> Swaid
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Rick Titsworth
> <rtitsworth@mindspring.com <mailto:rtitsworth@mindspring.com>> wrote:
>
>     Jeff, etal
>
>     A minor account, for additional background…
>
>     Last summer (early August sometime shortly after Osh), I was
>     questioned by two CBP officers upon landing at MCD (Mackinac Island,
>     Michgan) on an otherwise routine non-stop solo local/domestic flight
>     from my homebase, Y47 in the Detroit area in my C172.  They wanted
>     to see my ID, and ask a couple questions on where I was coming from,
>     if I had been out the country, etc.  They asked if I had the
>     registration, but did not request that I pull it out of the plastic
>     pocket on the side panel. It was not much of an event, and the
>     questions were not very invasive.  I did provide my ID and minimally
>     cooperative answers, all while I continued to tie-down, post flight,
>     and unload my bag.  They were in casual plain cloths, but did show
>     me their ID’s and were cordial.
>
>     In speaking with my wife who was waiting for me at the small airport
>     building, she indicated that they were waiting there before hand,
>     but also did the same to another plane that landed before me while
>     she was waiting – so they were apparently not focusing on any
>     specific planes.  Having overhead their conversation while she was
>     waiting, they were up there for a few days doing “audits” a couple
>     hours a day, AND STAYING AT THE MACHINAC GRAND HOTEL (5 star
>     $400-600 per night, 2 night min). http://www.grandhotel.com
>     <http://www.grandhotel.com/> and enjoying the island.
>
>     This is really a very unnecessary boondoggle…
>
>     MCD is a small (vacation/tourist) island 3 miles off the Michgan
>     shore only accessible by ferry/boat (or plane) and a fairly
>     expensive place to stay. The airport is within the state park
>     boundary, operated by the state, staffed by a park ranger who
>     records all tail numbers, and has a landing fee (but no services, no
>     fuel nor FBO).  It is not a high volume airport (untowered), but can
>     by relatively busy on nice weekends in the summer.  Needless to say,
>     this is probably the LAST place anyone would seek to bring a
>     fugitive into the country or any other potential nefarious
>     activity.  There are tons of remote, unattended, and more easily
>     accessible airports in northern Mich, were you could probably land
>     (stop&go) from Canada, below radar coverage (since they can’t ever
>     provide flight following, nor radar vectors, below ~4,500ft).  FYI,
>     there is even a bunch of Class G in the Mich Upper Peninsula also
>     (not just out west) – so you can legally fly in IMC without an IFR
>     flight plan and not talking to anyone - if you believe in the big
>     sky theory (I didn’t say it was safe).
>
>     Anyway the key point is, we don’t need to be paying for these hacks
>     to vacation at the GRAND in Aug while on the dole under the context
>     of CBP aviation audits!  What a waste of our CBP funding/resources,
>     especially when there’s a boarder that actually needs policing.
>
>     Rick
>
>     p.s. Afterwards, I decided if I ever got stopped (audited) again, I
>     would politely have them right down their names, badge
>     numbers/credentials and office contact info for me, after showing
>     them my ID, but before considering answering additional questions.
>
>     p.p.s I also plan on posting a copy of the CBP Guide to Law
>     Enforcement… on the bulletin board of every airport I land at.  That
>     should get some grass-roots pilots stirred up out there.
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:*Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net
>     <mailto:lml@lancaironline.net>] *On Behalf Of *vtailjeff@aol.com
>     <mailto:vtailjeff@aol.com>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2011 12:24 PM
>     *To:* lml@lancaironline.net <mailto:lml@lancaironline.net>
>     *Subject:* [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!
>
>     Guys & gals,
>
>     We appreciate your help. This Constitutional problem with Customs
>     and Border Patrol (CBP) and similar Federal agencies has been
>     brewing for a while and will not go away overnight. American
>     citizens are not the bad guys. GA pilots are not terrorists. You may
>     recall the 12,500# Program that TSA wanted to extend to small
>     aircraft two years ago. It was successfully fought by many in GA.
>     But this win was a small one for us and we must be ever vigilant to
>     protect our freedom to fly.
>
>     As a retired military officer and flier, I can tell you that CBP has
>     put together a large air force and intelligence network and is using
>     it against law abiding U.S. citizens. They are even advertising this
>     capability on their own website. Unfortunately, they appear to be
>     beyond the reach of our elected officials. The fax that we managed
>     to secure and post on this list shows us they view GA as a security
>     problem. As mentioned on an earlier post--they are not interested in
>     answering their bosses (us) questions regarding these intrusions on
>     our personal liberties. I have spent many hours researching this
>     issue and racked up numerous hours on the phone mustering support.
>     This latest attack on GA and our personal liberties occurred at my
>     home airport, involved a good friend of mine who now owns an
>     airplane I built, and was conducted at my hangar.
>
>     Where we stand today: I have met with our local law enforcement
>     officials who have conducted these searches based on phone calls
>     from CBP. They are not happy with CBP. CBP has wasted a considerable
>     amount of their time and made them out to be the bad guys which they
>     are not. It will probably be a long time before CBP calls our local
>     police force. Make contact with your local police agencies and
>     advise them of this nonsense --an ounce of prevention is worth a
>     pound of cure. The LOBO Board has been reaching out to our friends
>     and allies in GA. I have contacted Congressman Sam Graves'
>     office---he is the chairman of the GA caucus in the House of
>     Representatives. Contact you Congressman and Senator, as well. I
>     have connected with Jim Campbell who has published the pilot's
>     account in www.aeronews.net <http://www.aeronews.net/>.  Today,  I
>     have had dialogue with AOPA and their VP for Operations, Mr. Craig
>     Spence who will be meeting with CBP next week about this issue. I
>     will ask him to invite our VP-- Bob Pastusek, COL USAF (ret.) to
>     attend. AOPA is now giving this issue their top priority. Please
>     give AOPA and Mr. Spence your support and respect. If you have
>     anything else to report post it here or send it to me directly at
>     vtailjeff@aol.com <mailto:vtailjeff@aol.com>. I would appreciate
>     hearing from anyone else who has had this sort of treatment from our
>     Federal employees-- remember ---they work for us.
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>     Jeff Edwards
>
>     President,
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Kent <kent@tulsaconnect.com <mailto:kent@tulsaconnect.com>>
>     To: lml@lancaironline.net <mailto:lml@lancaironline.net>
>     Sent: Fri, Apr 22, 2011 12:56 pm
>     Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!
>
>     i passed the copy to a friend and here is what he wrote back:
>
>     I just called that number, 866-247-2878 <tel:866-247-2878>.
>
>     I was handed off to Tony Martinez <sp> who said he was an aviation
>     enforcement specialist at the Air and Marine Operations Center in
>     Riverside,
>     Calif.
>
>     Based on the beeping I heard on the line, I assume the telephone
>     call was
>     recorded.
>
>     He wanted to know who I was and who I represented or was "with."
>
>     I gave him my first and last name and said I'm simply a pilot in
>     Florida.
>
>     The Reader's Digest version of our conversation, taken from memory:
>
>     I explained I had some questions about a document -- the one in
>     question --
>     and read its title to him.
>
>     He asked where I got the document.
>
>     I said someone gave it to me. More importantly, I added, several of
>     the six
>     document requirements are almost certainly incorrect, mentioning #5
>     (pilot's
>     logbook) and #6 (Form 337). I pointed out these aren't FAA requirements.
>
>     He said Form 337s are paperwork for modifications to the aircraft
>     and must
>     be in the aircraft.
>
>     I said I thought the only Form 337 that must be carried in the
>     aircraft was
>     one for the installation of extra fuel tanks.
>
>     He said I should contact the FAA with my concerns.
>
>     I said this is a Dept of Homeland Security guide, not an FAA
>     document, so I
>     didn't think the appropriate action was to contact the FAA.
>
>     He said he was more concerned about where I got the document.
>
>     I explained I was worried I'd be confronted by law-enforcement
>     officers at
>     an airport and would run into problems because I wasn't carrying all
>     the
>     documents listed in the guide.
>
>     He said this was a "guide" and "they'll be talking to us." Further
>     back-and-forth made me realize he meant the officers would be in
>     real-time
>     contact with Martinez's facility during such a confrontation.
>
>     I said this might not be the case, and I mentioned the John and
>     Martha King
>     incident and one recently at a St. Louis airport, where the police
>     thought
>     the aircraft was carrying a federal fugitive when in fact it
>     contained a
>     lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserves who flew F22s.
>
>     I asked who in the DHS I should contact to get the guide corrected.
>     He said
>     I could send my input to his facility.
>
>     He again mentioned his concern about my having a copy of the doc.
>
>     How do we push back against this? AOPA seems too distracted selling
>     wine to
>     act on our behalf.
>
>     ----------------------------------
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>
>         *From:*vtailjeff@aol.com <mailto:vtailjeff@aol.com>
>
>         *To:*lml@lancaironline.net <mailto:lml@lancaironline.net>
>
>         *Sent:*Thursday, April 21, 2011 10:10 PM
>
>         *Subject:*[LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!
>
>         Here is a copy of a fax CBP sent. See if you can find the
>         mistakes! I am a bit surprised they believe they can detain you
>         if you do not have your pilot logbook onboard. LOL!!!!
>
>         Jeff
>
>
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: Bob Rickard <r.rickard@rcginc-us.com
>         <mailto:r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>>
>         To: lml@lancaironline.net <mailto:lml@lancaironline.net>
>         Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:49 am
>         Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!
>
>         We were able to get a copy of the fax that was sent to the local
>         police.  The “Tip” came from Customs and Border Patrol in CA.
>         And the local Police chief was actually /apologetic /because he
>         knew it was bogus.  The tip itself is BS.  They made it up.  IF
>         they had been watching me or investigating me they would have
>         known my wife was with me and not some dude.  That is the only
>         part that is really a violation, they are making up an excuse to
>         get the locals excited, and then seeing what they find.  Another
>         example was a guy accused of transporting computer chips that
>         were stolen.  I can imagine them making up stories over the
>         coffee in the morning.
>
>         How would the public react if any Fed agency routinely made up
>         tips so the cops would come to your house and want to search?
>         Imagine the news coverage.  That is the same thing going on
>         here.  If they have something on you, then absolutely go for
>         it.  But they did not in the 3 cases we know about just at our
>         local airport.
>
>         The lesson you derived is correct though.  Know your rights, and
>         also know how you can help them do their job without violating
>         your rights.  That is the best thing you can do (if innocent)
>         while saying the least amount possible.
>
>         Bob R
>
>         *From:*Lancair Mailing List [_mailto:lml@lancaironline.net_
>         <mailto:lml@lancaironline.net?>] *On Behalf Of *William Wilson
>         *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:05 AM
>         *To:* _lml@lancaironline.net_ <mailto:lml@lancaironline.net>
>
>         *Subject:* [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!
>
>         Seems pretty standard to me.  They checked out a tip that proved
>         to be bogus.  I don't see any rights violations here or anything
>         out of the ordinary.
>
>         The main lesson IMO is that, while there are plenty of cops who
>         abuse power, for the most part if you behave in a civilized
>         manner and realize they are just trying to do their job, most of
>         them will treat you fairly.  That seems to be what happened here.
>
>         On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Bob Rickard
>         <_r.rickard@rcginc-us.com_ <mailto:r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>> wrote:
>
>         Fellow LML’ers
>
>         It seems inevitable that the govt will search you at some
>         point.  Just some info on what happened to me yesterday, you can
>         hopefully use this to react appropriately for your situation.
>         This is the third incident just at our little airport in
>         Missouri of this happening…..
>
>         Bob Rickard
>
>         IV-P
>
>         On 18 April, 2011, I filed IFR from KGEU to K1H0 direct, with my
>         wife on board.  At 0845L, I departed KGEU VFR and picked up my
>         filed IFR clearance to K1H0 at FL210 with ABQ center.  The
>         flight was uneventful and I cancelled IFR approximately 10 miles
>         from K1H0 with St. Louis Approach and landed at 1443L.  Upon
>         landing and taxi to my hanger (P3) at Creve Coeur Airport, I was
>         surrounded by 6 Maryland Heights Police cars and about 10
>         officers.  I exited the plane and was approached by the
>         supervisor and asked if I had any identification.  I produced my
>         military ID (I am a LtCol in the Air Force Reserve flying
>         F-22’s) as well as my driver’s license, and asked the supervisor
>         what the problem was.  He told me that he got a “tip” from the
>         Federal Government that there may be a federal fugitive on board
>         by the name of Robert Mcrae.  He wasn’t sure of the name and
>         asked me if I knew anyone by a name similar to that, to which I
>         answered “no” to all.  He also stated that he was surprised to
>         see a woman in the plane with me since his informant said there
>         would be two men in the plane.  I inquired as to who would give
>         a tip like that, and he was vague.  A this point my wife exited
>         the plane and was asked to produce her ID as well and was
>         questioned as to what we were doing and where we were going and
>         where we came from.   It was apparent to the supervisor pretty
>         quickly that my wife and I were not federal fugitives as they
>         ran our ID’s, but he asked to search the airplane anyway.  I
>         told him that I was aware of my rights and he could not search
>         anything without a warrant, and he was quick to add “or your
>         permission” and “I could have the dogs come out”.  (side note –
>         they don’t need a warrant to have the dogs check out your
>         aircraft – if the dogs find something and indicate, then they
>         have probable cause to search you without a warrant.  If the
>         dogs find nothing they cannot search your aircraft until a
>         warrant is issued).  I told him that I would play nice, had
>         nothing to hide, and that my plan was to take my belongings out
>         of the airplane and put them in my car to go home, and I would
>         allow him to see what I took out and visually see inside the
>         cockpit and baggage compartment, but I was not allowing a search
>         of the airplane.  He agreed to this. I took my 2 pieces of
>         luggage out of the back and showed him the contents briefly (not
>         a complete search but opened up the zipper and showed clothes on
>         top) as well as the couple of vases we had bought in Phoenix and
>         lunch/sodas we had in the cockpit.  They saw nothing of interest
>         and returned my wife’s ID, but kept mine and made further
>         calls.  The supervisor indicated “I’m on overtime, I am outta
>         here” and left, but another officer checked with “EPIC” (unsure
>         of the spelling) which he told me was an international
>         consortium that traded information on travel, etc.  He told me
>         he was aware of my trip earlier this year to Mexico and the
>         Cayman Islands (honeymoon cruise) but there was nothing to get
>         me in trouble.  He then returned my ID and let us go.
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         --
>
>         For archives and unsub
>         _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html_
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         No virus found in this message.
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>
>
>
> --
> Swaid L. Rahn
> Indigo Aviation, Inc.
> 940 Mock Road
> Springfield, Ga. 31329
> Cell 912.655.0966
>
>


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