X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 12:24:06 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.100.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4954829 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:16:58 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.100.31; envelope-from=VTAILJEFF@aol.com Received: from imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (imo-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.138]) by imr-ma05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p3N2FuxW013144; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:15:56 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.d5e.7621d054 (56012); Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-de01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-de01.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.168]) by cia-md07.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD076-b2314db236532eb; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:15:50 -0400 Received: from webmail-d091 (webmail-d091.sim.aol.com [205.188.255.2]) by smtprly-de01.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDE016-b2314db236532eb; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:15:47 -0400 X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDCF737E171075_1518_30341_webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com" X-Original-Cc: rpastusek@htii.com, n5zq@verizon.net, colwell.ch@gmail.com, mwsletten@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from 24.107.65.42 by webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com (205.188.255.2) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:15:47 -0400 X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net X-AOL-IP: 24.107.65.42 X-Original-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:15:47 -0400 From: vtailjeff@aol.com References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33625-STANDARD In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <8CDCF737DCD45D5-1518-1A1CC@webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: VTAILJEFF@aol.com ----------MB_8CDCF737E171075_1518_30341_webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Guys & gals,=20 We appreciate your help. This Constitutional problem with Customs and Bord= er Patrol (CBP) and similar Federal agencies has been brewing for a while= and will not go away overnight. American citizens are not the bad guys.= GA pilots are not terrorists. You may recall the 12,500# Program that TSA= wanted to extend to small aircraft two years ago. It was successfully fou= ght by many in GA. But this win was a small one for us and we must be ever= vigilant to protect our freedom to fly.=20 As a retired military officer and flier, I can tell you that CBP has put= together a large air force and intelligence network and is using it again= st law abiding U.S. citizens. They are even advertising this capability on= their own website. Unfortunately, they appear to be beyond the reach of= our elected officials. The fax that we managed to secure and post on this= list shows us they view GA as a security problem. As mentioned on an earl= ier post--they are not interested in answering their bosses (us) questions= regarding these intrusions on our personal liberties. I have spent many= hours researching this issue and racked up numerous hours on the phone mu= stering support. This latest attack on GA and our personal liberties occur= red at my home airport, involved a good friend of mine who now owns an air= plane I built, and was conducted at my hangar.=20 Where we stand today: I have met with our local law enforcement officials= who have conducted these searches based on phone calls from CBP. They are= not happy with CBP. CBP has wasted a considerable amount of their time an= d made them out to be the bad guys which they are not. It will probably be= a long time before CBP calls our local police force. Make contact with yo= ur local police agencies and advise them of this nonsense --an ounce of pr= evention is worth a pound of cure. The LOBO Board has been reaching out to= our friends and allies in GA. I have contacted Congressman Sam Graves' of= fice---he is the chairman of the GA caucus in the House of Representatives= . Contact you Congressman and Senator, as well. I have connected with Jim= Campbell who has published the pilot's account in www.aeronews.net. Toda= y, I have had dialogue with AOPA and their VP for Operations, Mr. Craig= Spence who will be meeting with CBP next week about this issue. I will as= k him to invite our VP-- Bob Pastusek, COL USAF (ret.) to attend. AOPA is= now giving this issue their top priority. Please give AOPA and Mr. Spence= your support and respect. If you have anything else to report post it her= e or send it to me directly at vtailjeff@aol.com. I would appreciate heari= ng from anyone else who has had this sort of treatment from our Federal em= ployees-- remember ---they work for us.=20 Best Regards, Jeff Edwards President,=20 -----Original Message----- From: Kent To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Fri, Apr 22, 2011 12:56 pm Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! i passed the copy to a friend and here is what he wrote back: I just called that number, 866-247-2878. I was handed off to Tony Martinez who said he was an aviation=20 enforcement specialist at the Air and Marine Operations Center in Riversid= e,=20 Calif. Based on the beeping I heard on the line, I assume the telephone call was= =20 recorded. He wanted to know who I was and who I represented or was "with." I gave him my first and last name and said I'm simply a pilot in Florida. The Reader's Digest version of our conversation, taken from memory: I explained I had some questions about a document -- the one in question= -- =20 and read its title to him. He asked where I got the document. I said someone gave it to me. More importantly, I added, several of the si= x=20 document requirements are almost certainly incorrect, mentioning #5 (pilot= 's=20 logbook) and #6 (Form 337). I pointed out these aren't FAA requirements. He said Form 337s are paperwork for modifications to the aircraft and must= =20 be in the aircraft. I said I thought the only Form 337 that must be carried in the aircraft wa= s=20 one for the installation of extra fuel tanks. He said I should contact the FAA with my concerns. I said this is a Dept of Homeland Security guide, not an FAA document, so= I=20 didn't think the appropriate action was to contact the FAA. He said he was more concerned about where I got the document. I explained I was worried I'd be confronted by law-enforcement officers at= =20 an airport and would run into problems because I wasn't carrying all the= =20 documents listed in the guide. He said this was a "guide" and "they'll be talking to us." Further=20 back-and-forth made me realize he meant the officers would be in real-time= =20 contact with Martinez's facility during such a confrontation. I said this might not be the case, and I mentioned the John and Martha Kin= g=20 incident and one recently at a St. Louis airport, where the police thought= =20 the aircraft was carrying a federal fugitive when in fact it contained a= =20 lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserves who flew F22s. I asked who in the DHS I should contact to get the guide corrected. He sai= d=20 I could send my input to his facility. He again mentioned his concern about my having a copy of the doc. How do we push back against this? AOPA seems too distracted selling wine= to=20 act on our behalf. ---------------------------------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: vtailjeff@aol.com=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 10:10 PM Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! Here is a copy of a fax CBP sent. See if you can find the mistakes! I am= a bit surprised they believe they can detain you if you do not have your= pilot logbook onboard. LOL!!!! =20 Jeff =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bob Rickard To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:49 am Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! We were able to get a copy of the fax that was sent to the local police.= The =E2=80=9CTip=E2=80=9D came from Customs and Border Patrol in CA. An= d the local Police chief was actually apologetic because he knew it was bo= gus. The tip itself is BS. They made it up. IF they had been watching= me or investigating me they would have known my wife was with me and not= some dude. That is the only part that is really a violation, they are ma= king up an excuse to get the locals excited, and then seeing what they fin= d. Another example was a guy accused of transporting computer chips that= were stolen. I can imagine them making up stories over the coffee in the= morning. =20 =20 How would the public react if any Fed agency routinely made up tips so the= cops would come to your house and want to search? Imagine the news cover= age. That is the same thing going on here. If they have something on you= , then absolutely go for it. But they did not in the 3 cases we know abou= t just at our local airport. =20 The lesson you derived is correct though. Know your rights, and also know= how you can help them do their job without violating your rights. That= is the best thing you can do (if innocent) while saying the least amount= possible. =20 Bob R =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Wil= liam Wilson Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:05 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! =20 Seems pretty standard to me. They checked out a tip that proved to be bog= us. I don't see any rights violations here or anything out of the ordinar= y. The main lesson IMO is that, while there are plenty of cops who abuse powe= r, for the most part if you behave in a civilized manner and realize they= are just trying to do their job, most of them will treat you fairly. Tha= t seems to be what happened here. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Bob Rickard wro= te: Fellow LML=E2=80=99ers =20 It seems inevitable that the govt will search you at some point. Just som= e info on what happened to me yesterday, you can hopefully use this to rea= ct appropriately for your situation. This is the third incident just at= our little airport in Missouri of this happening=E2=80=A6.. =20 Bob Rickard IV-P =20 On 18 April, 2011, I filed IFR from KGEU to K1H0 direct, with my wife on= board. At 0845L, I departed KGEU VFR and picked up my filed IFR clearanc= e to K1H0 at FL210 with ABQ center. The flight was uneventful and I cance= lled IFR approximately 10 miles from K1H0 with St. Louis Approach and land= ed at 1443L. Upon landing and taxi to my hanger (P3) at Creve Coeur Airpo= rt, I was surrounded by 6 Maryland Heights Police cars and about 10 office= rs. I exited the plane and was approached by the supervisor and asked if= I had any identification. I produced my military ID (I am a LtCol in the= Air Force Reserve flying F-22=E2=80=99s) as well as my driver=E2=80=99s= license, and asked the supervisor what the problem was. He told me that= he got a =E2=80=9Ctip=E2=80=9D from the Federal Government that there may= be a federal fugitive on board by the name of Robert Mcrae. He wasn=E2= =80=99t sure of the name and asked me if I knew anyone by a name similar= to that, to which I answered =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D to all. He also stated= that he was surprised to see a woman in the plane with me since his infor= mant said there would be two men in the plane. I inquired as to who would= give a tip like that, and he was vague. A this point my wife exited the= plane and was asked to produce her ID as well and was questioned as to wh= at we were doing and where we were going and where we came from. It was= apparent to the supervisor pretty quickly that my wife and I were not fed= eral fugitives as they ran our ID=E2=80=99s, but he asked to search the ai= rplane anyway. I told him that I was aware of my rights and he could not= search anything without a warrant, and he was quick to add =E2=80=9Cor yo= ur permission=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CI could have the dogs come out=E2=80= =9D. (side note =E2=80=93 they don=E2=80=99t need a warrant to have the= dogs check out your aircraft =E2=80=93 if the dogs find something and ind= icate, then they have probable cause to search you without a warrant. If= the dogs find nothing they cannot search your aircraft until a warrant is= issued). I told him that I would play nice, had nothing to hide, and tha= t my plan was to take my belongings out of the airplane and put them in my= car to go home, and I would allow him to see what I took out and visually= see inside the cockpit and baggage compartment, but I was not allowing a= search of the airplane. He agreed to this. I took my 2 pieces of luggage= out of the back and showed him the contents briefly (not a complete searc= h but opened up the zipper and showed clothes on top) as well as the coupl= e of vases we had bought in Phoenix and lunch/sodas we had in the cockpit.= They saw nothing of interest and returned my wife=E2=80=99s ID, but kept= mine and made further calls. The supervisor indicated =E2=80=9CI=E2=80= =99m on overtime, I am outta here=E2=80=9D and left, but another officer= checked with =E2=80=9CEPIC=E2=80=9D (unsure of the spelling) which he tol= d me was an international consortium that traded information on travel, et= c. He told me he was aware of my trip earlier this year to Mexico and the= Cayman Islands (honeymoon cruise) but there was nothing to get me in trou= ble. He then returned my ID and let us go. =20 =20 -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.htm= l No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3587 - Release Date: 04/21/11 ----------MB_8CDCF737E171075_1518_30341_webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Guys & gals,
 
We appreciate your help. This Constitutional problem with Customs and= Border Patrol (CBP) and similar Federal agencies has been brewing for a= while and will not go away overnight. American citizens are not the bad= guys. GA pilots are not terrorists. You may recall the 12,500# Program th= at TSA wanted to extend to small aircraft two years ago. It was successful= ly fought by many in GA. But this win was a small one for us and we must= be ever vigilant to protect our freedom to fly.
 
As a retired military officer and flier, I can tell you that CBP has= put together a large air force and intelligence network and is using it= against law abiding U.S. citizens. They are even advertising this capabil= ity on their own website. Unfortunately, they appear to be beyond the reac= h of our elected officials. The fax that we managed to secure and pos= t on this list shows us they view GA as a security problem. As mentioned= on an earlier post--they are not interested in answering their bosses (us= ) questions regarding these intrusions on our personal liberties. I have= spent many hours researching this issue and racked up numerous hours on= the phone mustering support. This latest attack on GA and our personal li= berties occurred at my home airport, involved a good friend of= mine who now owns an airplane I built, and was conducted at my hanga= r.
Where we stand today: I have met with our local law enforcement offic= ials who have conducted these searches based on phone calls from CBP. They= are not happy with CBP. CBP has wasted a considerable amount of thei= r time and made them out to be the bad guys which they are not. It will pr= obably be a long time before CBP calls our local police force. Make contac= t with your local police agencies and advise them of this nonsense --an ou= nce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The LOBO Board has been= reaching out to our friends and allies in GA. I have contacted Congressma= n Sam Graves' office---he is the chairman of the GA caucus in the Hou= se of Representatives. Contact you Congressman and Senator, as well. I hav= e connected with Jim Campbell who has published the pilot's account in www= .aeronews.net.  Today,  I have had dialogue with AOPA and= their VP for Operations, Mr. Craig Spence who will be meeting with CBP ne= xt week about this issue. I will ask him to invite our VP-- Bob Pastu= sek, COL USAF (ret.) to attend. AOPA is now giving this issue th= eir top priority. Please give AOPA and Mr. Spence your support and respect= . If you have anything else to report post it here or send it to me direct= ly at vtailjeff@aol.com. I would= appreciate hearing from anyone else who has had this sort of treatment fr= om our Federal employees-- remember ---they work for us.
 
Best Regards,
 
Jeff Edwards
President,
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kent <kent@tulsaconnect.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Fri, Apr 22, 2011 12:56 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!

i passed the copy to a friend and here is= what he wrote back:
I just called that number, 866-247-2878.

I was handed off to Tony Martinez <sp> who said he was an aviation=
enforcement specialist at the Air and Marine Operations Center in Riversid= e,
Calif.

Based on the beeping I heard on the line, I assume the telephone call was=
recorded.

He wanted to know who I was and who I represented or was "with."

I gave him my first and last name and said I'm simply a pilot in Florida.<= br>
The Reader's Digest version of our conversation, taken from memory:

I explained I had some questions about a document -- the one in question= -- 
and read its title to him.

He asked where I got the document.

I said someone gave it to me. More importantly, I added, several of the si= x
document requirements are almost certainly incorrect, mentioning #5 (pilot= 's
logbook) and #6 (Form 337). I pointed out these aren't FAA requirements.
He said Form 337s are paperwork for modifications to the aircraft and must=
be in the aircraft.

I said I thought the only Form 337 that must be carried in the aircraft wa= s
one for the installation of extra fuel tanks.

He said I should contact the FAA with my concerns.

I said this is a Dept of Homeland Security guide, not an FAA document, so= I
didn't think the appropriate action was to contact the FAA.

He said he was more concerned about where I got the document.

I explained I was worried I'd be confronted by law-enforcement officers at=
an airport and would run into problems because I wasn't carrying all the=
documents listed in the guide.

He said this was a "guide" and "they'll be talking to us." Further
back-and-forth made me realize he meant the officers would be in real-time=
contact with Martinez's facility during such a confrontation.

I said this might not be the case, and I mentioned the John and Martha Kin= g
incident and one recently at a St. Louis airport, where the police thought=
the aircraft was carrying a federal fugitive when in fact it contained a=
lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserves who flew F22s.

I asked who in the DHS I should contact to get the guide corrected. He sai= d
I could send my input to his facility.

He again mentioned his concern about my having a copy of the doc.

How do we push back against this? AOPA seems too distracted selling wine= to
act on our behalf.

----------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 10:1= 0 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may= be searched!

Here is a copy of a= fax CBP sent. See if you can find the mistakes! I am a bit surprised they= believe they can detain you if you do not have your pilot logbook onboard= . LOL!!!!
 
Jeff
 


 


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Rickard <r.rickard= @rcginc-us.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:49 am
Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!

We were able to get= a copy of the fax that was sent to the local police.  The =E2=80=9CT= ip=E2=80=9D came from Customs and Border Patrol in CA.  And the local= Police chief was actually apologetic because he knew it was bogus.=   The tip itself is BS.  They made it up.  IF they had been= watching me or investigating me they would have known my wife was with me= and not some dude.  That is the only part that is really a violation= , they are making up an excuse to get the locals excited, and then seeing= what they find.  Another example was a guy accused of transporting= computer chips that were stolen.  I can imagine them making up stori= es over the coffee in the morning. 
 
How would the public= react if any Fed agency routinely made up tips so the cops would come to= your house and want to search?  Imagine the news coverage.  Tha= t is the same thing going on here.  If they have something on you, th= en absolutely go for it.  But they did not in the 3 cases we know abo= ut just at our local airport.
 
The lesson you deriv= ed is correct though.  Know your rights, and also know how you can he= lp them do their job without violating your rights.  That is the best= thing you can do (if innocent) while saying the least amount possible.
 
Bob R
 
Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of William Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:05 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net<= /A>
Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!
 
Seems pretty standard= to me.  They checked out a tip that proved to be bogus.  I don'= t see any rights violations here or anything out of the ordinary.

The main lesson IMO is that, while there are plenty of cops who abuse powe= r, for the most part if you behave in a civilized manner and realize they= are just trying to do their job, most of them will treat you fairly. = ; That seems to be what happened here.
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Bob Rickard <r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>= wrote:
Fellow LML=E2=80=99ers
 
It seems inevitable that the govt will search you at some poi= nt.  Just some info on what happened to me yesterday, you can hopeful= ly use this to react appropriately for your situation.  This is the= third incident just at our little airport in Missouri of this happening= =E2=80=A6..
 
Bob Rickard
IV-P
 
On 18 April, 2011, I filed IFR from KGEU to K1H0 direct, with= my wife on board.  At 0845L, I departed KGEU VFR and picked up my fi= led IFR clearance to K1H0 at FL210 with ABQ center.  The flight was= uneventful and I cancelled IFR approximately 10 miles from K1H0 with St.= Louis Approach and landed at 1443L.  Upon landing and taxi to my han= ger (P3) at Creve Coeur Airport, I was surrounded by 6 Maryland Heights Po= lice cars and about 10 officers.  I exited the plane and was approach= ed by the supervisor and asked if I had any identification.  I produc= ed my military ID (I am a LtCol in the Air Force Reserve flying F-22=E2=80= =99s) as well as my driver=E2=80=99s license, and asked the supervisor wha= t the problem was.  He told me that he got a =E2=80=9Ctip=E2=80=9D fr= om the Federal Government that there may be a federal fugitive on board by= the name of Robert Mcrae.  He wasn=E2=80=99t sure of the name and as= ked me if I knew anyone by a name similar to that, to which I answered =E2= =80=9Cno=E2=80=9D to all.  He also stated that he was surprised to se= e a woman in the plane with me since his informant said there would be two= men in the plane.  I inquired as to who would give a tip like that,= and he was vague.  A this point my wife exited the plane and was ask= ed to produce her ID as well and was questioned as to what we were doing= and where we were going and where we came from.   It was appare= nt to the supervisor pretty quickly that my wife and I were not federal fu= gitives as they ran our ID=E2=80=99s, but he asked to search the airplane= anyway.  I told him that I was aware of my rights and he could not= search anything without a warrant, and he was quick to add =E2=80=9Cor yo= ur permission=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CI could have the dogs come out=E2=80= =9D.  (side note =E2=80=93 they don=E2=80=99t need a warrant to have= the dogs check out your aircraft =E2=80=93 if the dogs find something and= indicate, then they have probable cause to search you without a warrant.&= nbsp; If the dogs find nothing they cannot search your aircraft until a wa= rrant is issued).  I told him that I would play nice, had nothing to= hide, and that my plan was to take my belongings out of the airplane and= put them in my car to go home, and I would allow him to see what I took= out and visually see inside the cockpit and baggage compartment, but I wa= s not allowing a search of the airplane.  He agreed to this. I took= my 2 pieces of luggage out of the back and showed him the contents briefl= y (not a complete search but opened up the zipper and showed clothes on to= p) as well as the couple of vases we had bought in Phoenix and lunch/sodas= we had in the cockpit.  They saw nothing of interest and returned my= wife=E2=80=99s ID, but kept mine and made further calls.  The superv= isor indicated =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m on overtime, I am outta here=E2=80=9D= and left, but another officer checked with =E2=80=9CEPIC=E2=80=9D (unsure= of the spelling) which he told me was an international consortium that tr= aded information on travel, etc.  He told me he was aware of my trip= earlier this year to Mexico and the Cayman Islands (honeymoon cruise) but= there was nothing to get me in trouble.  He then returned my ID and= let us go.
 
 
--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/L= ist.html
No virus found in this= message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.c= om
Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3587 - Release Date: 04/21/11
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