X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:38:19 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from col0-omc3-s18.col0.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.157] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c4) with ESMTP id 4032654 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 19:50:13 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.55.34.157; envelope-from=bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Received: from COL108-W8 ([65.55.34.135]) by col0-omc3-s18.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:49:35 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d9b4f095-562f-405b-9a86-1ee3b69208e7_" X-Originating-IP: [75.164.130.155] From: Bill Kennedy X-Original-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Fw: [LML] Vne discussion X-Original-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:49:35 -0800 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Dec 2009 00:49:35.0871 (UTC) FILETIME=[77A4A0F0:01CA81D7] --_d9b4f095-562f-405b-9a86-1ee3b69208e7_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Truth be known=2C there is no "simple" answer. My bet is that Lancair's VNE= is a WAG. I'm not sure it matters either=2C since our planes all have diff= erences that most likely affect that velocity. In my case I can avoid excee= ding 235 knots=2C true or indicated. I'm not the most cautious person=2C bu= t Van's discussion of the subject clearly caught my attention. Bill Kennedy N42BK=2C almost 600 hours and still in one piece (more or less). To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun=2C 20 Dec 2009 19:37:21 -0500 From: Wolfgang@MiCom.net Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML] Vne discussion I am still bothered by the fact that nobody seems=20 to be curious about how Vne is arrived at=2C especially in the case of the= =20 Lancair's. Most pay appropriate homage to it but I have yet to hear any det= ails=20 about it. You don't need a aeronautic degree to follow the basics and nobod= y=20 seems to know even the basics. What is this=2C some form of black magic=20 incomprehensible to mere mortals ? ? I=2C for one=2C when building a craft = like the=20 Lancair=2C most certainly want to know. =20 If there has been a usable mention of this subject=20 on the list=2C can someone tell which of the 53=2C500 posts to look up=20 ? =20 I know there is a simple answer somewhere. This=20 reminds me of my quest to identify why the horizontal stabilizer on a=20 UH1E\Bell-205 is designed to produces considerable down force. That answer= =2C once=20 found=2C turned out to be quite simple. =20 Wolfgang =20 I'm having difficulty understanding why no one can give direct=20 answers. I'm only looking for the various factors that are used to determine=20 Vne. Flutter=2C canopy being sucked off=2C skin surface excess vibration . . . ?= ?=20 ? . . . not the explecit calculations. Let's narow it down=2C what factors for the 300 series and Legacy ? =20 Wolfgang =20 =20 =20 From: "Robert Pastusek" =20 Sender: =20 Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Vne discussion =20 Date: Sun=2C 13 Dec 2009 17:37:39 -0500 =20 To: lml@lancaironline.net Wolfgang=2C As has been stated a number of times on this forum=2C the=20 determination of Vne is a very complex and multi-discipline task. Not to re= peat=20 what=92s been said many times=2C the several aero engineers that participat= e in this=20 forum have suggested that this subject is probably beyond a basic aero=20 engineering degree. You=92re unlikely to find one of these people willing t= o offer=20 a =93back of the hand=94 quick solution. LOTS of information on the interne= t about=20 this subject=2C and some serious reading available. a couple of courses on= =20 aeronautical design and finite element analysis will give you some idea of = what=20 you are looking for. Definitely beyond a simple posting on the LML=2C IMHO. Bob=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Sky2high@aol.com =20 Sender: =20 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Vne discussion =20 Date: Sun=2C 13 Dec 2009 17:37:27 -0500 =20 To: lml =20 =20 =20 =20 Yes=2C there was extensive information published here about the Vne=20 determination. =20 Scott Krueger So . . . am I to conclude that there's nobody on the=20 list that can identify how Vne is determined ? With all the experience of posters on this list=2C I'm=20 surprised to say the least. Is this black magic art or is there some real=20 formula/procedure ? All I've seen here so far is "is that meadured in IAS=2C=20 TAS OR Mach ?" or "what is the speed for xxx airframe ?". . . . but nothing about how the number comes to=20 be. Wolfgang = --_d9b4f095-562f-405b-9a86-1ee3b69208e7_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Truth be known=2C there is no "simple" answer. My bet is that Lancair's VNE= is a WAG. I'm not sure it matters either=2C since our planes all have diff= erences that most likely affect that velocity. In my case I can avoid excee= ding 235 knots=2C true or indicated. I'm not the most cautious person=2C bu= t Van's discussion of the subject clearly caught my attention.

Bill = Kennedy
N42BK=2C almost 600 hours and still in one piece (more or less).=

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sun=2C 2= 0 Dec 2009 19:37:21 -0500
From: Wolfgang@MiCom.net
Subject: [LML] Fw:= [LML] Vne discussion

I am still bothered by the fact that n= obody seems=20 to be curious about how Vne is arrived at=2C especially in the case =3B= of the=20 Lancair's. Most pay appropriate homage to it but I have yet to hear any det= ails=20 about it. You don't need a aeronautic degree to follow the basics and nobod= y=20 seems to know even the basics. What is this=2C some form of black magic=20 incomprehensible to mere mortals ? ? I=2C for one=2C when building a craft = like the=20 Lancair=2C most certainly want to know.
 =3B
If there has been a usable mention of = this subject=20 on the list=2C can someone tell which of the 53=2C500 posts to look up=20 ?
 =3B
I know there is a simple answer somewh= ere. This=20 reminds me of my quest to identify why the horizontal stabilizer on a=20 UH1E\Bell-205 is designed to produces considerable down force. That answer= =2C once=20 found=2C turned out to be quite simple.
 =3B
Wolfgang
 =3B

I'm having difficulty understanding why no one can give direct=20 answers.
I'm only looking for the various factors that are used to determine=20 Vne.
Flutter=2C canopy being sucked off=2C skin surface excess vibration . = . . ? ?=20 ?
. . . not the explecit calculations.
Let's narow it down=2C what factors for the 300 series and Legacy ?
 =3B
Wolfgang
 =3B
<= /tr> <= /table>

Wolfgang=2C

As has been stated a number of times on thi= s forum=2C the=20 determination of Vne is a very complex and multi-discipline task. Not to re= peat=20 what=92s been said many times=2C the several aero engineers that participat= e in this=20 forum have suggested that this subject is probably beyond a basic aero=20 engineering degree. You=92re unlikely to find one of these people willing t= o offer=20 a =93back of the hand=94 quick solution. LOTS of information on the interne= t about=20 this subject=2C and some serious reading available. a couple of courses on= =20 aeronautical design and finite element analysis will give you some idea of = what=20 you are looking for. Definitely beyond a simple posting on the LML=2C IMHO.=

Bob=20

From: "Robert Pastusek" <=3Brpastusek@htii.c= om>=3B
Sender: <=3Bmarv@lancaironline.net>=3B
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Vne discussion
Date: Sun=2C 13 Dec 2009 17:37:39 -0500
To: lml@lancaironline.net
From: Sky2high@aol.com
Sender: <=3Bmarv@lancaironline.net= >=3B
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Vne discussion=
Date: Sun=2C 13 Dec 2009 17:37:27 = -0500
To: lml


 =3B=
Yes=2C there was extensive information published here about the = Vne=20 determination.
 =3B
Scott Krueger


So . . . am I to conclude that there's nobo= dy on the=20 list that can identify how Vne is determined ?

With all the experience of posters on this = list=2C I'm=20 surprised to say the least.

Is this black magic art or is there some re= al=20 formula/procedure ?

All I've seen here so far is "is that meadu= red in IAS=2C=20 TAS OR Mach ?" or "what is the =3Bspeed for xxx airframe ?".

=

. . . but nothing about how the number come= s to=20 be.

Wolfgang

= = --_d9b4f095-562f-405b-9a86-1ee3b69208e7_--