X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:12:47 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3874405 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:57:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.66; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rhKzrvc3o7JFRF+qvXM+1WkwF+RQnIonQi7miKTibjBew/6PpnQ6U3jAcOBR2SNM; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [216.57.118.63] (helo=ccaselt3) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Mudka-0005tp-C2 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:56:36 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <0b1401ca4567$73a7df50$5c8c020a@nvidia.com> From: "Colyn Case at earthlink" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: High #2 CHT on a IVP X-Original-Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:56:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0B11_01CA4545.EC405720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3598 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da9403d5cb225d20152929d4fe3e2785df13e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.57.118.63 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0B11_01CA4545.EC405720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable re: I don't know the answer to the "degrees the hottest egt is below = peak when at full rich". not sure if you meant just hadn't gotten to it or what but just in = case... Actually what you want for ROP is how many degrees below peak is the = last cylinder to peak below its peak temp. So if you go briefly to peak, find the last cylinder to peak, note egt = and fuel flow, and then dial back to full rich and see how much lower = you can get it. At peak you should get about 18.x gph and 15xx egt At full rich you should get ?32gph (waiting for Craig to get the = authoritative number) and 150-200 degrees or so less egt on that = cylinder. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dan Reagan=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:28 PM Subject: [LML] Re: High #2 CHT on a IVP I am getting the 43.5 at wide open throttle at 38.5 inches. I will = check the 32 gallons at 31.5" and 2500. I have the standard TCM injectors which are all the same size. After testing today I found that #2, #4, and #6 all peak about the = same time. Number 1, 3, and 5 seem to peak at about the same time. The = fuel flow difference from first to peak and last to peak looks to be = about .6 gallons per hour. (this is at 23" and 2500 rpm) It seems = strange that all on the left side peak first but then I don't know a lot = about the workings of this engine. The air flowing around #2 is well managed. It flows properly around = the back and is directed well around the bottom. I don't know the answer to the "degrees the hottest egt is below = peak when at full rich". I think I am about to the point of investigating the setting lean of = peak that will give good tit's and good cht's. I sure can't get any = speed while running rich of peak and I know the heat is not good for the = engine. I really really appreciate the input to this problem. =20 Dan Reagan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Colyn Case at earthlink=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 5:07 AM Subject: Re: [LML] High #2 CHT on a IVP Dan, There's no reason you can't get a non-fadec engine to have = reasonable cooling. I think you got some other change along with this = engine. - I agree with Craig on fuel flow. Do you get the 43.5 wide open? = If not, I would fix that first. Then are you getting the 32 at 31.5? - 375 for the other cylinders is also high which is another reason = to suspect FF is too low. - you really don't want #2 to be first to peak so you want more flow = on that injector. Do you have gami jectors? - You didn't mention the gami spread between #2 and the others. (gph = fuel flow between when #2 peaks and the others). - re: the oil cooler, is the air actually flowing through the fins = on #2 or escaping around the back. you also want flow guides under the back of #2 to force the air to flow through the bottom = fins - 400 in cruise is extreme. how many degrees is your hottest egt = below peak when you are full rich? you should be able to get 150-200 dF = rich of peak if you want it. When you lean it, tit will go past 1700 = dF near peak. you have to go to the other side of peak. to get it to = come back down. it would be worth knowing if there is a mixture setting = on the lean side that will get your tit down and your cht's e.g. in the = < 350 range. Colyn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Craig Berland=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: [LML] High #2 CHT on a IVP Dan, my engine is doing the same thing. One thing to try is = putting your "last" to peak injector in #2 cylinder. #2 is the hardest = cylinder to cool in my plane as well. This may cause you to fly quite = lean if you cruise "lean of peak. Two, check your fuel rate at 2500 rpm = and 31.5 inHg. I think at full rich it should be approx 32 gph and mine = is way below that. I have 43.5 gph at 2700 rpm and 38.4 inHg. It = appears I may need to pull the fuel pump and check the calibration. I'm = trying to find fuel flow rate data for the TSIO550 right now. Craig Berland IV-P N7VG The current engine I have is brand new with approximately 20 hours = on it. It has a standard mixture control and replaced the previous = FADEC controlled engine. I can not seem to correct my number 2 CHT problem. The previous = engine did not seem to have the problem to this extent. The mod of = building a recess in the oil cooler plenum was done long ago.=20 I cannot climb with 31.5" MP, full rich without #2 hitting 400F at = about 11,000 feet. Climb speed is 165 knots. Today's ground temp was = 70F. I have made a clear path for the air by relocating hoses, spark = plug leads, brackets and anything that might disturb the cooling air. = The only thing left to move is the air conditioning hoses which are = right in the way of the air as it enters the cowling. All the baffling is very tight and everything is the same as was = on the other engine. Has any one had to use a larger injector to keep number 2 cool. = Number 2 EGT is the first to peak. All the other 5 CHT's run within 3 = degrees of each other with number 2 being about 25 degrees higher. = EGT's are running in the 1450 range with #2 being the hottest. Straight and level at 17,000 feet indicating over 200 knots the #2 = CHT will stay just under 400 degrees 31.5" and full rich. When I try = to lean it out the TIT's start above 1650. Has anyone got any suggestions? I will be looking at the injectors tomorrow. I wonder what the trade in value of a slightly used red knob = control cable is? Dan Reagan IVP 670 hours and wishing I had my FADEC back ------=_NextPart_000_0B11_01CA4545.EC405720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
re: I don't know the answer to the = "degrees the=20  hottest egt is  below peak when at full rich".
 
not sure if you meant just hadn't = gotten to it or=20 what but just in case...
 
Actually what you want for ROP is = how many=20 degrees below peak is the last cylinder to peak below = its peak=20 temp.
 
So if you go briefly to peak, = find the=20 last cylinder to peak, note egt and fuel flow,  and then dial back = to full=20 rich and see how much lower you can get it.
At peak you should get about 18.x gph = and 15xx=20 egt
At full rich you should get ?32gph = (waiting for=20 Craig to get the authoritative number) and 150-200 degrees or so less = egt on=20 that cylinder.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dan = Reagan
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 = 10:28=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: High #2 CHT = on a=20 IVP

I am getting the 43.5 at wide open = throttle at=20 38.5 inches.  I will check the 32 gallons at 31.5" and = 2500.
 
I have the standard TCM injectors = which are all=20 the same size.
 
After testing today I found that #2, = #4, and #6=20 all peak about the same time.  Number 1, 3, and 5 seem to peak at = about=20 the same time.  The fuel flow difference from first to peak and = last to=20 peak looks to be about .6 gallons per hour. (this is at 23" and = 2500 rpm)=20 It seems strange that all on the left side peak first but then I don't = know a=20 lot about the workings of this engine.
 
The air flowing around #2 is well = managed. =20 It flows properly around the back and is directed well around the=20 bottom.
 
I don't know the answer to the = "degrees the=20  hottest egt is  below peak when at full rich".
 
I think I am about to the = point of=20 investigating the setting lean of peak that will give good tit's and = good=20 cht's.  I sure can't get any speed while running rich of peak and = I know=20 the heat is not good for the engine.
 
I really really appreciate the input = to this=20 problem. 
 
Dan Reagan
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Colyn=20 Case at earthlink
Sent: Sunday, October 04, = 2009 5:07=20 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] High #2 = CHT on a=20 IVP

Dan,
There's no reason you can't get a = non-fadec=20 engine to have reasonable cooling.  I think you got some other = change=20 along with this engine.
- I agree with Craig on fuel = flow.  Do you=20 get the 43.5 wide open?  If not, I would fix that first.  = Then are=20 you getting the 32 at 31.5?
- 375 for the other cylinders is = also high=20 which is another reason to suspect FF is too low.
- you really don't want #2 to be = first to peak=20 so you want more flow on that injector.   Do you have gami = jectors?
- You didn't mention the gami = spread between #2=20 and the others. (gph fuel flow between when #2 peaks and the=20 others).
- re: the oil cooler, is the air = actually=20 flowing through the fins on #2 or escaping around the back.  = you also=20 want flow guides
under the back of #2 to force the = air to flow=20 through the bottom fins
- 400 in cruise is = extreme.  how many=20 degrees is your hottest egt below peak when you are full rich?  = you=20 should be able to get 150-200 dF rich of peak if you want=20 it.    When you lean it, tit will go past 1700 dF = near=20 peak.   you have to go to the other side of peak. to = get it=20 to come back down.  it would be worth knowing if there is a = mixture=20 setting on the lean side that will get your tit down and your cht's = e.g. in=20 the < 350 range.
 
Colyn
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Craig=20 Berland
Sent: Saturday, October 03, = 2009 8:36=20 PM
Subject: [LML] High #2 CHT = on a=20 IVP

Dan, my engine is doing the same thing.  One = thing to=20 try is putting your "last" to peak injector in #2 cylinder.  = #2 is=20 the hardest cylinder to cool in my plane as well.  This may = cause you=20 to fly quite lean if you cruise "lean of peak. Two, check your = fuel rate=20 at 2500 rpm and 31.5 inHg. I think at full rich it should be = approx 32 gph=20 and mine is way below that.  I have 43.5 gph at 2700 rpm and = 38.4=20 inHg.  It appears I may need to pull the fuel pump and check = the=20 calibration.  I'm trying to find fuel flow rate data for the = TSIO550=20 right now.
Craig = Berland
IV-P = N7VG
The current engine I have is = brand new with=20 approximately 20 hours on it.  It has a standard mixture = control and=20 replaced the previous FADEC controlled engine.
 
I can not seem to correct my = number 2 CHT=20 problem.  The previous engine did not seem to have the = problem to=20 this extent.  The mod of building a recess in the oil cooler = plenum=20 was done long ago.
 
I cannot climb with 31.5" = MP, full rich=20 without #2 hitting 400F at about 11,000 feet.  Climb speed is = 165=20 knots.  Today's ground temp was 70F.  I have made a = clear path=20 for the air by relocating hoses, spark plug leads, brackets and = anything=20 that might disturb the cooling air.  The only thing left to = move is=20 the air conditioning hoses which are right in the way of the air = as it=20 enters the cowling.
 
All the baffling is very tight = and everything=20 is the same as was on the other engine.
 
Has any one had to use a larger = injector to=20 keep number 2 cool.  Number 2 EGT is the first to peak.  = All the=20 other 5 CHT's run within 3 degrees of each other with number 2 = being about=20 25 degrees higher.  EGT's are running in the 1450 range with = #2 being=20 the hottest.
 
Straight and level at 17,000 feet = indicating=20 over 200 knots the #2 CHT will stay just under 400 degrees  = 31.5" and=20 full rich.  When I try to lean it out the TIT's start above=20 1650.
 
Has anyone got any = suggestions?
 
I will be looking at the = injectors=20 tomorrow.
 
I wonder what the trade in value = of a=20 slightly used red knob control cable is?
 
Dan Reagan
IVP 670 hours and wishing I had = my FADEC=20 = back
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