X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:12:47 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from betsy.gendns5.com ([65.254.38.234] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTPS id 3874406 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:49:37 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.254.38.234; envelope-from=paul@tbm700.com Received: from s01060018f83ecf6d.cg.shawcable.net ([70.72.197.235]:57064 helo=[192.168.3.109]) by betsy.gendns5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MuddB-0001bE-1K for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:48:57 -0400 From: paul miller Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--621654248 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: High #2 CHT on a IVP X-Original-Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 20:48:56 -0600 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <837554D2-5B4D-4A7F-8A8C-7BDEAE4A4DAD@tbm700.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - betsy.gendns5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lancaironline.net X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tbm700.com --Apple-Mail-2--621654248 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes You have classic TCM lean cylinders (1 and 2) but the left side peaking first together may be a good clue. I'd certainly look for an induction leak on the left side then right side (I can't recall if your engine is Turbo or not). The 0.6 difference seems reasonable so I'm not sure any GAMIjectors would necessarily help this particular problem. I would definitely start looking for leaks, fuel stains, open sniffler valves and any tiny induction leak especially at clamps and couplings. good luck. Paul Miller Calgary On 2009-10-04, at 8:28 PM, Dan Reagan wrote: > I am getting the 43.5 at wide open throttle at 38.5 inches. I will > check the 32 gallons at 31.5" and 2500. > > I have the standard TCM injectors which are all the same size. > > After testing today I found that #2, #4, and #6 all peak about the > same time. Number 1, 3, and 5 seem to peak at about the same time. > The fuel flow difference from first to peak and last to peak looks > to be about .6 gallons per hour. (this is at 23" and 2500 rpm) It > seems strange that all on the left side peak first but then I don't > know a lot about the workings of this engine. > > The air flowing around #2 is well managed. It flows properly around > the back and is directed well around the bottom. > > I don't know the answer to the "degrees the hottest egt is below > peak when at full rich". > > I think I am about to the point of investigating the setting lean of > peak that will give good tit's and good cht's. I sure can't get any > speed while running rich of peak and I know the heat is not good for > the engine. > > I really really appreciate the input to this problem. > > Dan Reagan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Colyn Case at earthlink > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 5:07 AM > Subject: Re: [LML] High #2 CHT on a IVP > > Dan, > There's no reason you can't get a non-fadec engine to have > reasonable cooling. I think you got some other change along with > this engine. > - I agree with Craig on fuel flow. Do you get the 43.5 wide open? > If not, I would fix that first. Then are you getting the 32 at 31.5? > - 375 for the other cylinders is also high which is another reason > to suspect FF is too low. > - you really don't want #2 to be first to peak so you want more flow > on that injector. Do you have gami jectors? > - You didn't mention the gami spread between #2 and the others. (gph > fuel flow between when #2 peaks and the others). > - re: the oil cooler, is the air actually flowing through the fins > on #2 or escaping around the back. you also want flow guides > under the back of #2 to force the air to flow through the bottom fins > - 400 in cruise is extreme. how many degrees is your hottest egt > below peak when you are full rich? you should be able to get > 150-200 dF rich of peak if you want it. When you lean it, tit > will go past 1700 dF near peak. you have to go to the other side > of peak. to get it to come back down. it would be worth knowing if > there is a mixture setting on the lean side that will get your tit > down and your cht's e.g. in the < 350 range. > > Colyn > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Craig Berland > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:36 PM > Subject: [LML] High #2 CHT on a IVP > > Dan, my engine is doing the same thing. One thing to try is putting > your "last" to peak injector in #2 cylinder. #2 is the hardest > cylinder to cool in my plane as well. This may cause you to fly > quite lean if you cruise "lean of peak. Two, check your fuel rate at > 2500 rpm and 31.5 inHg. I think at full rich it should be approx 32 > gph and mine is way below that. I have 43.5 gph at 2700 rpm and > 38.4 inHg. It appears I may need to pull the fuel pump and check > the calibration. I'm trying to find fuel flow rate data for the > TSIO550 right now. > Craig Berland > IV-P N7VG > The current engine I have is brand new with approximately 20 hours > on it. It has a standard mixture control and replaced the previous > FADEC controlled engine. > > I can not seem to correct my number 2 CHT problem. The previous > engine did not seem to have the problem to this extent. The mod of > building a recess in the oil cooler plenum was done long ago. > > I cannot climb with 31.5" MP, full rich without #2 hitting 400F at > about 11,000 feet. Climb speed is 165 knots. Today's ground temp > was 70F. I have made a clear path for the air by relocating hoses, > spark plug leads, brackets and anything that might disturb the > cooling air. The only thing left to move is the air conditioning > hoses which are right in the way of the air as it enters the cowling. > > All the baffling is very tight and everything is the same as was on > the other engine. > > Has any one had to use a larger injector to keep number 2 cool. > Number 2 EGT is the first to peak. All the other 5 CHT's run within > 3 degrees of each other with number 2 being about 25 degrees > higher. EGT's are running in the 1450 range with #2 being the > hottest. > > Straight and level at 17,000 feet indicating over 200 knots the #2 > CHT will stay just under 400 degrees 31.5" and full rich. When I > try to lean it out the TIT's start above 1650. > > Has anyone got any suggestions? > > I will be looking at the injectors tomorrow. > > I wonder what the trade in value of a slightly used red knob control > cable is? > > Dan Reagan > IVP 670 hours and wishing I had my FADEC back --Apple-Mail-2--621654248 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii You have classic TCM lean cylinders (1 and 2) but = the left side peaking first together may be a good clue.  I'd = certainly look for an induction leak on the left side then right side (I = can't recall if your engine is Turbo or not).   The 0.6 difference = seems reasonable so I'm not sure any GAMIjectors would necessarily help = this particular problem.  I would definitely start looking for = leaks, fuel stains, open sniffler valves and any tiny induction leak = especially at clamps and couplings.  good = luck.

Paul Miller
Calgary
On = 2009-10-04, at 8:28 PM, Dan Reagan wrote:

I am getting the 43.5 at = wide open throttle at 38.5 inches.  I will check the 32 gallons at = 31.5" and 2500.
 
I = have the standard TCM injectors which are all the same = size.
 
After = testing today I found that #2, #4, and #6 all peak about the same = time.  Number 1, 3, and 5 seem to peak at about the same = time.  The fuel flow difference from first to peak and last to peak = looks to be about .6 gallons per hour. (this is at 23" and 2500 = rpm) It seems strange that all on the left side peak first but then I = don't know a lot about the workings of this = engine.
 
The = air flowing around #2 is well managed.  It flows properly around = the back and is directed well around the bottom.
 
I don't know the answer to the "degrees the  hottest egt = is  below peak when at full rich".
 
I think I am about to the point of investigating the = setting lean of peak that will give good tit's and good cht's.  I = sure can't get any speed while running rich of peak and I know the heat = is not good for the engine.
 
I = really really appreciate the input to this = problem. 
 
Dan = Reagan
----- = Original Message -----
 Sunday, = October 04, 2009 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] High #2 CHT on a = IVP

Dan,
There's = no reason you can't get a non-fadec engine to have reasonable = cooling.  I think you got some other change along with this = engine.
- I agree with = Craig on fuel flow.  Do you get the 43.5 wide open?  If not, I = would fix that first.  Then are you getting the 32 at = 31.5?
- 375 for the = other cylinders is also high which is another reason to suspect FF is = too low.
- you really = don't want #2 to be first to peak so you want more flow on that = injector.   Do you have gami jectors?
- You didn't mention the gami spread between = #2 and the others. (gph fuel flow between when #2 peaks and the = others).
- re: the oil = cooler, is the air actually flowing through the fins on #2 or escaping = around the back.  you also want flow guides
under the back of #2 to force the air to flow = through the bottom fins
-= 400 in cruise is extreme.  how many degrees is your hottest = egt below peak when you are full rich?  you should be able to = get 150-200 dF rich of peak if you want it.   =  When you lean it, tit will go past 1700 dF near peak.   = you have to go to the other side of peak. to get it to come back = down.  it would be worth knowing if there is a mixture setting on = the lean side that will get your tit down and your cht's e.g. in the = < 350 range.
 
Colyn
 
 
----- Original Message = -----
 Saturday,= October 03, 2009 8:36 PM
Subject: [LML] High #2 CHT on a = IVP

Dan, my engine is doing the = same thing.  One thing to try is putting your "last" to peak = injector in #2 cylinder.  #2 is the hardest cylinder to cool in my = plane as well.  This may cause you to fly quite lean if you cruise = "lean of peak. Two, check your fuel rate at 2500 rpm and 31.5 inHg. I = think at full rich it should be approx 32 gph and mine is way below = that.  I have 43.5 gph at 2700 rpm and 38.4 inHg.  It appears = I may need to pull the fuel pump and check the calibration.  I'm = trying to find fuel flow rate data for the TSIO550 right now.
Craig = Berland
IV-P = N7VG
The current engine I have is brand new with approximately 20 = hours on it.  It has a standard mixture control and replaced the = previous FADEC controlled engine.
 
I can = not seem to correct my number 2 CHT problem.  The previous engine = did not seem to have the problem to this extent.  The mod of = building a recess in the oil cooler plenum was done long = ago.
 
I = cannot climb with 31.5" MP, full rich without #2 hitting 400F at = about 11,000 feet.  Climb speed is 165 knots.  Today's ground = temp was 70F.  I have made a clear path for the air by relocating = hoses, spark plug leads, brackets and anything that might disturb the = cooling air.  The only thing left to move is the air conditioning = hoses which are right in the way of the air as it enters the = cowling.
 
All = the baffling is very tight and everything is the same as was on the = other engine.
 
Has = any one had to use a larger injector to keep number 2 cool.  Number = 2 EGT is the first to peak.  All the other 5 CHT's run within 3 = degrees of each other with number 2 being about 25 degrees higher.  = EGT's are running in the 1450 range with #2 being the = hottest.
 
Straight and level at 17,000 feet indicating over 200 knots = the #2 CHT will stay just under 400 degrees  31.5" and full = rich.  When I try to lean it out the TIT's start above = 1650.
 
Has = anyone got any suggestions?
 
I = will be looking at the injectors tomorrow.
 
I wonder what the trade in value of a slightly used red knob = control cable is?
 
Dan = Reagan
IVP 670 hours = and wishing I had my FADEC = back

= --Apple-Mail-2--621654248--