X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:05:55 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from smtp121.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.94] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with SMTP id 3304844 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:17:01 -0500 Received: (qmail 20592 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2008 22:17:01 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=VT+t3FdWNdLITWTCx34+W9lvT5UokmTSs7FbP94jIYs5F+E5SkSE31IgHqv806s9IKBaEl8w0xxmtA8weAFZuZ8wUxsvSIA5OHFDg974glA4LWU7Kl9Nzu8ACmck1DR9XnDFMmwVPUzAE5r7qVJGITI6+EJn+jo2FNrngtP8uGk= ; Received: from unknown (HELO Sam) (n98pb@75.34.229.215 with login) by smtp121.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2008 22:16:59 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 5hMtn40VM1kTCQG7sNOTEmomNmyxuRQeJWHo7E07d7ZIuCQkmobZ0ARymwMjFxovu.fdrRKWabXsJIdt5euGp9GofmXy9n9Fikl7KU0lBj.uILMY_AMP7USoix_bTLr9oXgxBLKUpclmR9Qgg0lNnW3oAfyx_DIPmzsXx7es0jGmkw2RCo.ZkcCiPYo- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "n98pb" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" Subject: RE: LML and discussions therein X-Original-Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:17:00 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: <005001c94902$37156100$0201a8c0@Sam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01C948BF.28F22100" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Importance: Normal Thread-Index: AclI6l0zuARe1ez7RcWvvfQ8fZQ23QAFEgMg In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C948BF.28F22100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glema, As the wife of a Lancair pilot (flying since 1999) who has seen many = friends and acquaintances lose their lives in aircraft, I have to agree with = Jeff. If we just push the information under the rug and ignore it, a pilot may lose valuable information that could save his life. At one gathering of pilots, my husband and I were commenting on an incident that happened = with our aircraft that we felt was identical to what had occurred to Dave = Hickman of the High Performance Aircraft Training Company. Dave did not = survive, my husband and his passenger did. Another person in attendance shushed us, saying that Dave's widow was sitting in the group. Mrs. Hickman = immediately spoke up and said, no, please, continue on, I want someone to learn from = any mistake that might have been made. While it turned out that the problem = was extremely similar, though not exact, what my husband did to correct the problem and continue flying was invaluable information to the other = pilots in attendance. If we can't learn from others mistakes, errors or poor judgments, in any arena, we are all doomed to failure at some point. If = you watch Air Emergency (which Pete Zaccagnino suggests might not be a good = idea for me, since I have some fear of flying), the show provides valuable information to other pilots who watch in hopes of avoiding a similar circumstance. Should it be taken off the air because it could offend someone who lost a family member or friend on one of the flights = depicted? This is not said sarcastically or critically, just as a question, so = please take it as such. =20 =20 I guess I have been under the assumption that the LML is a private site = for those Lancair builders and owners who contact Marv and ask to be put on = the email list. If anyone who receives the LML finds it offensive, they = only need to ask Marv to remove them so that no further emails come to their mailbox. I am sure over the many years that Marv has graciously handled = the LML that people have come as a new builder to the Lancair community or = gone with the sale of their aircraft. =20 =20 As Jeff points out, the information on the accidents is in the public domain. Because of the rash of crashes, it is imperative that we = determine what the causes are in order to find a means of correcting the problems = to keep our pilots safe. Most spouses of the pilot (assuming they are non-pilots themselves) do not read the LML. Perhaps what you are = seeking is an "off-switch" to the deceased pilot's website to protect the spouse. = Marv could easily delete a deceased pilot from his email list to assure that emails do not go out to survivors, however I think it would be a = terrible disservice to the pilots to take away their discussion of incidents or accidents because of the valuable information gleaned in the discourse. Many pilots lives here on the LML have been saved already from = information learned from the more well-versed pilots in this fantastic domain. =20 Susan Brunner IVP fearful co-pilot and supporter of my husband, Pat Who has nearly 800 hours in this quick little bird =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 11:25 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: LML =20 Glema, I appreciate your comments but must respectfully disagree with you.=20 As long has man has been flying pilots have been discussing the = accidents that arise. The altruistic purpose, of course, is to prevent future accidents. Without that discussion, how can aviation safety be advanced? = How can anything be advanced without open discussion? The discussion of the accident ranges from notification to speculation to informed discussion. There has never, in my opinion, been any disrespect shown to the family = or the decendent. Have our Lancair accident pilots been careless? Yes. Have they been reckless? Yes. Have they negligently killed others? Yes. You = only have to read the NTSB accident report about the February 2008 Oregon = Lancair ES accident report to read about two non instrument rated pilots who = filed an IFR flight plan and departed into IMC conditions where they lost = control of the airplane killing all three aboard. Were they good people, loved = by their families? Yes. Do we as a group want this kind of reckless = behaviour to continue at peril to our own flying privileges? No. Should we only discuss this privately in private emails? C'mon... it was all over the national aviation press last month when it was released by the NTSB. Sweeping it under the rug will not make this community safer. In my = opinion, a good healthy respectful discussion will make our community safer. I am sorry for those men and their families --but their decisions got them to = the accident site. If they had abided by the good recommendations espoused = here by many others --they would be alive today.=20 In nine years of participation I have not seen one widow comment on this website-- not one.=20 There are too few Lancair owners and builders to divide up into = different forums.=20 The LML forum is in the state it is in today not because of the people = who do participate but because of the ones who don't. Too many lurkers and = not enough participants! Please jump into the forum! Very Respectfully, Jeff Edwards -----Original Message----- From: Scott Keighan To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 5:01 pm Subject: [LML] Re: LML To all, =20 I am the wife of a Lancair builder and have been reading the Forum for = many years while my husband has been building and now flying. As an outsider = who knows a little something about the process of building and a little experience about flying, my conclusion is there are a handfull of you = guys out there that must have nothing better to do then sit on the computer = all day long and wait for someone to ask a question or make a remark. Then = the group of you decide if it is a valid question or a stupid question. Then either way you pick it apart and discuss it for days to come. Heaven = forbid we lose one of our own, in which case all the condolence's go out at = first then you proceed to openly discuss the accident and possible causes. = Have respect for the family and all the people hurt by the loss of that = person. The LML forum is not the place to discuss what might have happened. I = know you will probably say someone may learn from it. So maybe it should be discussed amoung yourselves through private emails. As a widow I would = not want to see over and over articales and reports as to the final minutes = of my husbands life or know that it is being rehashed everyday for weeks to come by the group of guys that are suppose to share the love of the = hobby that my husband loved so much. Much of the discussions are speculations = and draw hard feelings and fire up temperments which turn newcomers to the = LML forum off. It also does not do justice to the family of lancair = builders and to the company. =20 =20 My suggestion would be open a new forum for "chatter" for all you guys = out there that feel you have to evaluate and discuss all the theroies of = flight. Leave the forum for builders asking questions and needing assistance. = No question is stupid and no one would have to worry about being made to = feel stupid. For those guys that are building when a problem hits they need answers now. Sure they can look it up in the archives because that = question has been answered many times before but..... remember when all of you = were building all you wanted to do was get it flying.=20 An easy search for one of you geniuses may not be so easy for the rest = of the guys. Most of you have had and solved the problems builders are having. Why not give the answer, = instead of criticizing. =20 It does not matter how long a builder is building. It's about the love = of flying that you are all forgetting. =20 Glema Keighan Built and flown both a Velocity and Lancair 4 =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sky2high@aol.com=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: [LML] Re: LML =20 Angier and Bryan, =20 First of all, Angier has been building for ever and has gotten every question answered thru the LML over all these years. Perhaps the = answers to many builder questions already exist in the archives, available thru a simple search. As has been noted recently, we may be losing Lancairians that have reached the flying state far too frequently - thus the = interest in resolving the issues concerning flight. I sometimes get direct = questions from builders and flyers that seek greater detail after an item of = interest has been located in the LML archives. It has always been questions that drive the LML although some of us tinkerers contribute the results of "flight experiments" to the LML. =20 Secondly, certain Lancair models have type specific web sites. =20 Bryan, as the starter of a web based forum = (http://www.lancairforce.com/), you are probably aware that Lancair folks are generally not "chatty" = types. There has been several attempts at forums and some just don't seem to = have the activity that is seen elsewhere. =20 Please keep in mind that the LML is question driven - no questions, no traffic. =20 Uh, Angier, how are your projects coming? =20 Grayhawk AKA Scott Krueger =20 In a message dated 11/15/2008 6:36:35 A.M. Central Standard Time, vonjet@gmail.com writes: =20 _____ =20 Get the Moviefone Toolbar = . Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more! =20 _____ =20 Instant access to the latest & most popular FREE games while you browse = with the Games Toolbar - Download = Now!=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C948BF.28F22100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Glema,

As the wife of a Lancair pilot = (flying since 1999) who has seen many friends and acquaintances lose their lives = in aircraft,  I have to agree with Jeff.  If we just push the information under the rug and ignore it, a pilot may lose valuable = information that could save his life.  At one gathering of pilots, my husband = and I were commenting on an incident that happened with our aircraft that we = felt was identical to what had occurred to Dave Hickman of the High Performance = Aircraft Training Company.  Dave did not survive, my husband and his = passenger did.  Another person in attendance shushed us, saying that = Dave’s widow was sitting in the group.  Mrs. Hickman immediately spoke up = and said, no, please, continue on, I want someone to learn from any mistake = that might have been made.  While it turned out that the problem was = extremely similar, though not exact, what my husband did to correct the problem and = continue flying was invaluable information to the other pilots in = attendance.  If we can’t learn from others mistakes, errors or poor judgments, in = any arena, we are all doomed to failure at some point.  If you watch = Air Emergency (which Pete Zaccagnino suggests might not be a good idea for = me, since I have some fear of flying), the show provides valuable = information to other pilots who watch in hopes of avoiding a similar = circumstance.  Should it be taken off the air because it could offend someone who lost a = family member or friend on one of the flights depicted?  This is not said sarcastically or critically, just as a question, so please take it as such. 

 

I guess I have been under the = assumption that the LML is a private site for those Lancair builders and owners who contact Marv and ask to be put on the email list.  If anyone who = receives the LML finds it offensive, they only need to ask Marv to remove them so = that no further emails come to their mailbox.  I am sure over the many = years that Marv has graciously handled the LML that people have come as a new builder to = the Lancair community or gone with the sale of their aircraft.  =

 

As Jeff points out, the = information on the accidents is in the public domain.  Because of the rash of crashes, = it is imperative that we determine what the causes are in order to find a = means of correcting the problems to keep our pilots safe.  Most spouses of = the pilot (assuming they are non-pilots themselves) do not read the LML.  = Perhaps what you are seeking is an “off-switch” to the deceased = pilot’s website to protect the spouse.  Marv could easily delete a deceased = pilot from his email list to assure that emails do not go out to survivors, = however I think it would be a terrible disservice to the pilots to take away their discussion of incidents or accidents because of the valuable information gleaned in the discourse.  Many pilots lives here on the LML have = been saved already from information learned from the more well-versed pilots = in this fantastic domain.

 

Susan Brunner

IVP fearful co-pilot and = supporter of my husband, Pat

Who has nearly 800 hours in this = quick little bird

 

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: Monday, November = 17, 2008 11:25 AM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = LML

 

Glema,

I appreciate your comments but must respectfully disagree with you.

As long has man has been flying pilots have been discussing the = accidents that arise. The altruistic purpose, of course, is to prevent future = accidents. Without that discussion, how can aviation safety be advanced? How can = anything be advanced without open discussion? The discussion of the accident = ranges from notification to speculation to informed discussion. There has = never, in my opinion, been any disrespect shown to the family or the decendent. = Have our Lancair accident pilots been careless? Yes. Have they been reckless? = Yes. Have they negligently killed others? Yes. You only have to read the = NTSB accident report about the February 2008 Oregon Lancair ES accident = report to read about two non instrument rated pilots who filed an IFR flight plan = and departed into IMC conditions where they lost control of the airplane = killing all three aboard. Were they good people, loved by their families? Yes. = Do we as a group want this kind of reckless behaviour to continue at = peril to our own flying privileges? No.  Should we only discuss this = privately in private emails? C'mon... it was all over the national aviation press last month when it was released by the NTSB.  Sweeping it = under the rug will not make this community safer. In my opinion, a good healthy respectful discussion will make our community safer. I am sorry for = those men and their families --but their decisions got them to the accident = site. If they had abided by the good recommendations espoused here by many others = --they would be alive today.

In nine years of participation I have not seen one widow comment on = this website-- not one.

There are too few Lancair owners and builders to divide up into = different forums.

The LML forum is in the state it is in today not because of the people = who do participate but because of the ones who don't. Too many lurkers = and not enough participants!

Please jump into the forum!

Very Respectfully,

Jeff Edwards






-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 5:01 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: LML

To all,

 

I am the wife of a Lancair builder and have = been reading the Forum for many years while my husband has been building and = now flying.  As an outsider who knows a little something about the = process of building and a little experience about flying, my conclusion is there = are a handfull of you guys out there that must have nothing better = to do then sit on the computer all day long and wait for someone to ask a question or make a remark.  Then the group of you = decide if it is a valid question or a stupid question. Then either way you pick it = apart and discuss it for days to come.  Heaven forbid we lose one = of our own, in which case all the condolence's go out at first then you proceed = to openly discuss the accident and possible causes.  Have respect for = the family and all the people hurt by the loss of that person.  = The LML forum is not the place to discuss what might have happened.  I know = you will probably say someone may learn from it. So maybe it should be discussed  amoung yourselves through private emails.  As a widow I would not want to see over and over articales and reports = as to the final minutes of my husbands life or know that it is being rehashed everyday for weeks to come by the group of guys that are suppose to = share the love of the hobby that my husband loved so much.  Much of the discussions are speculations and draw hard feelings and fire up = temperments which turn newcomers to the LML forum off.  It = also does not do justice to the family of lancair builders and to the = company. 

 

My suggestion would be open a new forum = for "chatter" for all you guys out there that feel you have to = evaluate and discuss all the theroies of flight.  Leave the forum for = builders asking questions and needing assistance.  No question is stupid and = no one would have to worry about being made to feel stupid.  For those guys that are building when a problem hits they need answers = now. Sure they can look it up in the archives because that question has been answered many times before but..... remember when all of you were = building all you wanted to do was get it flying. 

An easy search for one of you geniuses may = not be so easy for the rest of the guys.  Most of you have had = and

solved the problems builders are = having.  Why not give the answer, instead of criticizing.

 

It does not matter how long a builder is building.  It's about the love of flying that you are all = forgetting.

 

Glema Keighan

Built and flown both a Velocity = and Lancair 4

 

 

----- Original Message ----- =

To:<= /font> lml@lancaironline.net

Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:06 AM

Subject: [LML] Re: LML

 

Angier and Bryan,

 

First of all, Angier has been building for ever and has gotten every = question answered thru the LML over all these years.  Perhaps the answers to = many builder questions already exist in the archives, available thru a simple search.  As has been noted recently, we may be losing Lancairians = that have reached the flying state far too frequently - thus the interest in = resolving the issues concerning flight.  I sometimes get direct questions = from builders and flyers that seek greater detail after an item of interest = has been located in the LML archives.  It has always been questions = that drive the LML although some of us tinkerers contribute the results of = "flight experiments" to the LML.

 

Secondly, certain Lancair models have type specific web sites.

 

Bryan, as the starter of a web based forum (http://www.lancairforce.com/), you are probably = aware that Lancair folks are generally not "chatty" types.  There = has been several attempts at forums and some just don't seem to have the activity = that is seen elsewhere.

 

Please keep in mind that the LML is question driven - no questions, no = traffic.

 

Uh, Angier, how are your projects coming?

 

Grayhawk AKA Scott Krueger

 

In a message dated 11/15/2008 6:36:35 A.M. Central Standard Time, vonjet@gmail.com = writes:




 

Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, = movie news & more!

 

Instant access = to the latest & most popular FREE games while you browse with the Games = Toolbar - Download Now!

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