X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:24:37 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.99] (HELO imo-m11.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3304082 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:04:57 -0500 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.bcb.3d34cbff (37554) for ; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-mb02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mb02.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.149]) by cia-mb03.mx.aol.com (v121_r4.6) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB033-5c654921961a37b; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:04:51 -0500 Received: from WEBMAIL-DG11 (webmail-dg11.sim.aol.com [205.188.171.75]) by smtprly-mb02.mx.aol.com (v121_r3.13) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMB023-5c654921961a37b; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:04:42 -0500 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LML X-Original-Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:04:42 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 75.63.172.168 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CB16E555F44B3F_109C_15D3_WEBMAIL-DG11.sim.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 39997-STANDARD Received: from 75.63.172.168 by WEBMAIL-DG11.sim.aol.com (205.188.171.75) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:04:42 -0500 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CB16E551987CE3-109C-AF6@WEBMAIL-DG11.sim.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CB16E555F44B3F_109C_15D3_WEBMAIL-DG11.sim.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Glema, I appreciate your comments but must respectfully disagree with you. As long has man has been flying pilots have been discussing the accidents that arise. The altruistic purpose, of course, is to prevent future accidents. Without that discussion, how can aviation safety be advanced? How can anything be advanced without open discussion? The discussion of the accident ranges from notification to speculation to informed discussion.?There?has never, in my opinion, been any disrespect shown to the family or the decendent. Have our Lancair accident pilots been careless? Yes. Have they been reckless? Yes. Have they negligently killed others? Yes.?You only have to read the NTSB accident report about the February 2008 Oregon Lancair ES accident report to read about two non instrument rated pilots who filed an IFR flight plan and departed into IMC conditions where they lost control of the airplane killing all three aboard. Were they good people, loved by their families? Yes. Do we as?a group want this kind of reckless behaviour to continue at peril to our own flying privileges??No. ?Should we only discuss this privately in private emails? C'mon... it was all over the national aviation press last?month when it was released by the NTSB. ?Sweeping it under the rug will not make this community safer. In my opinion, a good healthy respectful discussion will make our community safer. I am sorry for those men and their families --but their decisions got them?to the accident site. If they had abided by the good recommendations espoused here by many others --they would be alive today. In?nine years of participation I have not seen one widow comment on this website-- not one. There are too few Lancair owners and builders to divide up into different forums. The LML forum is in the state it is in today not because of the people who do participate but because of the ones who don't. Too many lurkers and not enough participants! Please jump into the forum! Very Respectfully, Jeff Edwards -----Original Message----- From: Scott Keighan To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 5:01 pm Subject: [LML] Re: LML To all, ? I am the wife of a Lancair builder and have been reading the Forum for many years while my husband has been building and now flying.? As an outsider who knows a little something about the process of building and a little experience about flying, my conclusion is there are a handfull?of you guys?out there that must have nothing better to do then sit on the computer all day long and wait for?someone to ask a?question or?make a remark.? Then the group of you decide if it is a valid question or a stupid question. Then either way you pick it apart and discuss it for days to come.? Heaven forbid?we lose?one of our own, in which case all the condolence's go out at first then you proceed to openly discuss the accident and possible causes.? Have respect for the family and all the people hurt?by the loss of that person.? The LML forum is not the place to discuss what might have happened.? I know you will probably say someone may learn from it. So maybe it should be discussed? amoung yourselves through private emails.? As a widow?I would not want to see over and over articales and reports as to the final minutes of my husbands life or know that it is being rehashed everyday for weeks to come by?the group of guys that are suppose to share the love of the hobby that my husband loved so much.? Much of the discussions are speculations and draw hard feelings and fire up temperments which?turn?newcomers to the?LML forum?off.? It also does not do justice to the family of lancair builders and to the company.? ? My suggestion would be?open a new forum for "chatter" for all you guys out there that feel you have to evaluate and discuss?all the theroies of flight.? Leave the forum for builders asking questions and needing assistance.? No question is stupid and no one would?have to worry about being made to feel stupid.? For those?guys that are building when a problem hits they need answers now. Sure they can look it up in the archives because that question has been answered many times before but..... remember when all of you were building all you wanted to do was get it flying.? An easy search for one of you geniuses may not be so easy for the rest of the guys.? Most of you have had and solved the problems builders are having.? Why not give the answer, instead of criticizing. ? It does not matter how long a builder is building.? It's about the love of flying?that you are all forgetting. ? Glema Keighan Built and flown both a Velocity and?Lancair 4 ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sky2high@aol.com To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: [LML] Re: LML Angier and Bryan, ? First of all, Angier has been building for ever and has gotten every question answered thru the LML over all these years.? Perhaps the answers to many builder questions already exist in the archives, available thru a simple search.? As has been noted recently, we may be losing Lancairians that have reached the flying state far too frequently - thus the interest in resolving the issues concerning flight.? I sometimes get direct questions from builders and flyers that seek greater detail after an item of interest has been located in the LML?archives.? It has always been questions that drive the LML although some of us tinkerers contribute the results of "flight experiments" to the LML. ? Secondly, certain Lancair models have type specific web sites. ? Bryan, as the starter of a web based forum (http://www.lancairforce.com/), you are probably aware that Lancair folks are generally not "chatty" types.? There has been several attempts at forums and some just don't seem to have the activity that is seen elsewhere. ? Please keep in mind that the LML is question driven - no questions, no traffic. ? Uh, Angier, how are your projects coming? ? Grayhawk AKA Scott Krueger ? In a message dated 11/15/2008 6:36:35 A.M. Central Standard Time, vonjet@gmail.com writes: ? ? ? Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more! ----------MB_8CB16E555F44B3F_109C_15D3_WEBMAIL-DG11.sim.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Glema,

I appreciate your comments but must respectfully disagree with you.

As long has man has been flying pilots have been discussing the accidents that arise. The altruistic purpose, of course, is to prevent future accidents. Without that discussion, how can aviation safety be advanced? How can anything be advanced without open discussion? The discussion of the accident ranges from notification to speculation to informed discussion. There has never, in my opinion, been any disrespect shown to the family or the decendent. Have our Lancair accident pilots been careless? Yes. Have they been reckless? Yes. Have they negligently killed others? Yes. You only have to read the NTSB accident report about the February 2008 Oregon Lancair ES accident report to read about two non instrument rated pilots who filed an IFR flight plan and departed into IMC conditions where they lost control of the airplane killing all three aboard. Were they good people, loved by their families? Yes. Do we as a group want this kind of reckless behaviour to continue at peril to our own flying privileges? No.  Should we only discuss this privately in private emails? C'mon... it was all over the national aviation press last month when it was released by the NTSB.  Sweeping it under the rug will not make this community safer. In my opinion, a good healthy respectful discussion will make our community safer. I am sorry for those men and their families --but their decisions got them to the accident site. If they had abided by the good recommendations espoused here by many others --they would be alive today.

In nine years of participation I have not seen one widow comment on this website-- not one.

There are too few Lancair owners and builders to divide up into different forums.

The LML forum is in the state it is in today not because of the people who do participate but because of the ones who don't. Too many lurkers and not enough participants!

Please jump into the forum!

Very Respectfully,

Jeff Edwards






-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Keighan <scottekeighan@sympatico.ca>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 5:01 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: LML

To all,
 
I am the wife of a Lancair builder and have been reading the Forum for many years while my husband has been building and now flying.  As an outsider who knows a little something about the process of building and a little experience about flying, my conclusion is there are a handfull of you guys out there that must have nothing better to do then sit on the computer all day long and wait for someone to ask a question or make a remark.  Then the group of you decide if it is a valid question or a stupid question. Then either way you pick it apart and discuss it for days to come.  Heaven forbid we lose one of our own, in which case all the condolence's go out at first then you proceed to openly discuss the accident and possible causes.  Have respect for the family and all the people hurt by the loss of that person.  The LML forum is not the place to discuss what might have happened.  I know you will probably say someone may learn from it. So maybe it should be discussed  amoung yourselves through private emails.  As a widow I would not want to see over and over articales and reports as to the final minutes of my husbands life or know that it is being rehashed everyday for weeks to come by the group of guys that are suppose to share the love of the hobby that my husband loved so much.  Much of the discussions are speculations and draw hard feelings and fire up temperments which turn newcomers to the LML forum off.  It also does not do justice to the family of lancair builders and to the company. 
 
My suggestion would be open a new forum for "chatter" for all you guys out there that feel you have to evaluate and discuss all the theroies of flight.  Leave the forum for builders asking questions and needing assistance.  No question is stupid and no one would have to worry about being made to feel stupid.  For those guys that are building when a problem hits they need answers now. Sure they can look it up in the archives because that question has been answered many times before but..... remember when all of you were building all you wanted to do was get it flying. 
An easy search for one of you geniuses may not be so easy for the rest of the guys.  Most of you have had and
solved the problems builders are having.  Why not give the answer, instead of criticizing.
 
It does not matter how long a builder is building.  It's about the love of flying that you are all forgetting.
 
Glema Keighan
Built and flown both a Velocity and Lancair 4
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: LML

Angier and Bryan,
 
First of all, Angier has been building for ever and has gotten every question answered thru the LML over all these years.  Perhaps the answers to many builder questions already exist in the archives, available thru a simple search.  As has been noted recently, we may be losing Lancairians that have reached the flying state far too frequently - thus the interest in resolving the issues concerning flight.  I sometimes get direct questions from builders and flyers that seek greater detail after an item of interest has been located in the LML archives.  It has always been questions that drive the LML although some of us tinkerers contribute the results of "flight experiments" to the LML.
 
Secondly, certain Lancair models have type specific web sites.
 
Bryan, as the starter of a web based forum (http://www.lancairforce.com/), you are probably aware that Lancair folks are generally not "chatty" types.  There has been several attempts at forums and some just don't seem to have the activity that is seen elsewhere.
 
Please keep in mind that the LML is question driven - no questions, no traffic.
 
Uh, Angier, how are your projects coming?
 
Grayhawk AKA Scott Krueger
 
In a message dated 11/15/2008 6:36:35 A.M. Central Standard Time, vonjet@gmail.com writes:



 
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