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From: "Ted DuPuis" <tdupuis@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: ....thoughts on accidents "Flying slow is not for the uninformed, and maybe not for most"
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Jarret, thanks for stating exactly what I was thinking, but worded far
better than I am capable of doing. I'll have to put my asbestos suit on,
too.

The one Lancair flight I had was most enjoyable. In it, a power off stall
was demonstrated for me. It was a non-event, because the pilot knew what to
expect and how to handle it. In any airplane I fly, I want to have that same
level of comfort. Sure, when I first started learning to fly I wasn't
comfortable with doing stalls when I went up solo. At this point, I'm
perfectly comfortable doing them in the planes I fly. I just started flying
a new (to me) plane that's hotter than what I'm used to, and as part of my
training in it, I need to get comfortable with doing stalls in it. We'll go
do that next time I go up with my instructor. While I don't expect to get
fully comfortable with the plane in one session, I do expect to get fully
comfortable with it over the course of more practice. That is the
expectation I have for myself regardless of what I'm flying.

I am in agreement that one ought to be proficient with slow flight and
understand where the aircraft stalls. Know how it feels and where it will
stall. Really, it should be a non-event in practice, which will hopefully
make it a non-event should it ever actually happen. I know too many pilots
who, even as they are training to become CFIs, have never practiced a full
stall, just approach to stalls. Some DPEs have scolded friends of mine for
doing full stalls on checkrides, saying it should only be approach. To me,
this is insane. If you've never done a full one in training, you are that
much more likely to do it wrong in real life, and thus more likey to have a
problem when it happens. If the airplane is more challenging, to me the
logic is that you need to become more proficient. If you really can't handle
it, my question is why are you flying the plane without an instructor to
help you get more proficient?

Yep, I race my car, and I know exactly what it's capable of. It's saved me
on more than one occasion. Knowing what my plane will do I am sure will one
day save me, too.

-Ted
Currently flying a Mooney M20F, Lancair 360 on the wish list


On 8/28/08, H & J Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wrote:
>
>   I've read this discussion w/ interest and because I have [as of yet] no
> lancair time, I've kept quiet. I am a professional pilot, however I'm far
> from the experiance level that many of you are. I fly a 414 for hire so I am
> used to pressurized, reasonable speed, heavier airframe and reasonable
> approach speeds. When it comes to slow flight, I'm an advocate of training.
> I've spun C-150's many many times, primarily because in Canada it's part of
> the training syllabus. It's a required training exercise which must be
> demonstrated as well as learned and practiced w/ and w/out an instructor on
> board. [it's been long enough that I can't remember if it's a flight test
> item or not].
>
> One comment which was passed on to me once was, " you can *sometimes* go
> faster, but you can *ALWAYS* go slower". I don't think anyone here is
> saying "go flying around on the razers edge for hours at a time & make sure
> your right over the trees" but rather know your airplane, it's low speed
> limitations. In the course of day to day flight's we don't ever plan to have
> emergancy's or inflight problems but they do occur and we do need to train
> and practice for them. There are many situations where knowing how close you
> are to a stall is VERY important. The short list that comes to mind [and I'm
> missing 99% of this list I'm sure];
>
> 1-Partial power loss- You are having trouble maintaining altitude, your
> over terrain on which you cannot land, trying to stretch those last few
> miles from the airframe.. Typically we should be slowing to a speed which
> meets Max range in a situation like this..  how close is that to your stall?
> Maybe you just need to suck it up over that last set of trees, are you going
> to stall if you lose more speed?
>
> 2-  Short final missed approach, like others mentioned runway incursion or
> possible birds, skydiver [smaller airports] or glider, anything gets into
> your path on short final and requires an abrupt pitch change, evasion
> manouver. It'd probably never happen to 99% of us.. but it could, are you
> ready if it does?
>
> 3- Structural issue.. you hit a bird, or whatever and feel that the best
> way to lighten the structural load on the airplane is to slow down..  REALLY
> slow down..  how slow would you go? Certainly not to the edge of stall.. and
> maybe the impact is such that if you slow to much you might lose control
> authority [roll control 'say'] but if you don't know how your airframe
> behaves at 1.3x  and are scared to slow that much, are you really doing
> everything you can to slow the airplane down and minimize structural load
> due to speed?
>
> 4- Failed gear extension. Wanna make a slow pass for the tower to have a
> look, I'd be wanting to go as slow as I feel is safe.. make sure they have
> lots of time to look at it.. doesn't mean I'd be right at the stall.. but
> the slower I go.. the more chance they have to see what's what.
>
> I'm sure there are many many more.
>
> When the day arrives and we get our 320 airborne I plan to know how to
> learn how to fly it in the green arc and know how it behaves anywhere in the
> green arc. That's not to say that I plan to spin it but I do plan to stall
> it, and understand how it behaves at the bottom end of the arc. And, if need
> be work to tame the stall to a point where it is controlable and
> predictable, and yes.. to do this may cause a hair raising trip or two. I
> will be doing it w/ a parachute, and while I'm not a huge fan of
> jumping, I've jumped a few times before & I will be prepared. Is this
> testing going to be at tree top level.. hardly.. is it manditory, yes. Can
> it be accomplished with a reasonable degree of safety, YES.
>
> I think often this type of testing during the manditory 25 is more of a 'ok
> we're slowing.. there's the buffet... add power.. ok.. we know it will
> stall.. next item" and leave it at that.. it's my opinion that this is a
> poor form of flight testing. Often these a/c are built w/ the intent to get
> flying and going places and the testing phase is just an annoying
> nuisnace standing between me and where I want to go w/ my a/c. The first
> 5-10 hrs are spent doing the nesc checks for sign off and there-after it's
> just burning gas around the local airport until I can get my 25 in and get
> outta'here..
>
> In the 414 we shoot approaches at 110-120knt depending on load and the
> airport, however I have done approaches into short strips w/ a lighter load
> at 90, it wasn't terribly comfortable but it was doable, because I knew from
> training that the airframe would fly at those speeds.   A extreme example is
> Bob Hoover. He could fly the pants off a Shrike and it wasn't because he
> flew it fast, when he did his engine out routine he was using the airframe
> to either limit [fast and slow]. He was able to do this because he knew what
> it could and could not do. I'm not saying we need to go to these extremes
> [Bob had tight margines to play w/ when he did his routine and practiced
> it] but we should be comfortable knowing our airplane in its normal flight
> envelope, from either extreme of that envelope. If we are scared to fly to
> either end of that envelope then either we have to much airplane or we need
> more training/testing to be comfortable in our plane. Spin/stall training
> and slow flight is not dangerous when approached from the right perspective
> [and in the case of spin training, completed in the right aircraft]. Don't
> spin your Lancair, but if your scared to stall it "..'cause it'll kill ya.."
> then there is REALLY something wrong w/ the airframe and I wouldn't fly in
> it period.. not until that issue is addressed and fixed. GA aircraft [and I
> mean traveling a/c, not aerobatic] should no be that unpredictable,
> regardless whether it's an Experimental or not.
>
> Ok.. I've said my piece..  Asbestos suite on..
>
> Jarrett Johnson
>
> 235/320 55% [zero Lnc Hrs]
>

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<div>Jarret, thanks for stating exactly what I was thinking, but worded far=
 better than I am capable of doing. I&#39;ll have to put my asbestos suit o=
n, too.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The one Lancair flight I had was most enjoyable. In it, a power off st=
all was demonstrated for me. It was a non-event, because the pilot knew wha=
t to expect and how to handle it. In any airplane I fly, I want to have tha=
t same level of comfort. Sure, when I first started learning to fly I wasn&=
#39;t comfortable with doing stalls when I went up solo. At this point, I&#=
39;m perfectly comfortable doing them in the planes I fly. I just started f=
lying a new (to me)&nbsp;plane that&#39;s hotter than what I&#39;m used to,=
 and as part of my training in it, I need to get comfortable with doing sta=
lls in it. We&#39;ll go do that next time I go up with my instructor. While=
 I don&#39;t expect to get fully comfortable with the plane in one session,=
 I do expect to get fully comfortable with it over the course of more pract=
ice. That is the expectation I have for myself regardless of what I&#39;m f=
lying.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I am in agreement that one ought to be proficient with slow flight and=
 understand where the aircraft stalls. Know how it feels and where it will =
stall. Really, it should be a non-event in practice, which will hopefully m=
ake it a non-event should it ever actually happen. I know too many pilots w=
ho, even as they are training to become CFIs, have never practiced a full s=
tall, just approach to stalls. Some DPEs have scolded friends of mine for d=
oing full stalls on checkrides, saying it should only be approach. To me, t=
his is insane. If you&#39;ve never done a full one in training, you are tha=
t much more likely to do it wrong in real life, and thus more likey to have=
 a problem when it happens. If the airplane is more challenging, to me the =
logic is that you need to become more proficient. If you really can&#39;t h=
andle it, my question is why are you flying the plane without an instructor=
 to help you get more proficient?</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Yep, I race my car, and I know exactly what it&#39;s capable of. It=
9;s saved me on more than one occasion. Knowing what my plane will do I am =
sure will one day save me, too.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>-Ted</div>
<div>Currently flying a Mooney M20F, Lancair 360 on the wish list<br><br>&n=
bsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8/28/08, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
H &amp; J Johnson</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hjjohnson@sasktel.net">hjjohnso=
n@sasktel.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p>I&#39;ve read this discussion w/ interest&nbsp;and because I have [as of=
 yet] no lancair time, I&#39;ve kept quiet. I am a professional pilot, howe=
ver I&#39;m far from the experiance level that many of you are. I fly a 414=
 for hire so I am used to pressurized, reasonable speed, heavier airframe a=
nd reasonable approach speeds. When it comes to slow flight, I&#39;m an adv=
ocate of training. I&#39;ve spun C-150&#39;s many many times, primarily bec=
ause in Canada it&#39;s part of the training syllabus. It&#39;s a required =
training exercise which must be demonstrated as well as learned and practic=
ed w/ and&nbsp;w/out an instructor on board.&nbsp;[it&#39;s been long enoug=
h that I can&#39;t remember if it&#39;s a flight test item or not].</p>

<p>One comment which was passed on to me once was, &quot; you can <em>somet=
imes</em> go faster, but you can <strong>ALWAYS</strong> go slower&quot;. I=
 don&#39;t think anyone here is saying &quot;go flying around on the razers=
 edge for hours at a time &amp; make sure your&nbsp;right over the trees&qu=
ot; but rather know your airplane, it&#39;s low speed limitations. In the c=
ourse of day to day flight&#39;s we don&#39;t ever plan to have emergancy&#=
39;s or inflight problems but they do occur and we do need to train and pra=
ctice for them. There are many situations where knowing how close you are t=
o a stall is VERY important. The short list that comes to mind [and I&#39;m=
 missing 99% of this list I&#39;m sure];</p>

<p>1-Partial power loss- You are having trouble maintaining altitude, your =
over terrain on which you cannot land, trying to stretch those last few mil=
es from the airframe.. Typically we should be slowing to a speed which meet=
s Max range in a situation like this..&nbsp; how close is that to your stal=
l? Maybe you just need to suck it up over that last set of trees, are you g=
oing to stall if you lose more speed?</p>

<p>2-&nbsp; Short final missed approach, like others mentioned runway incur=
sion or possible birds, skydiver [smaller airports] or glider, anything get=
s into your path on short final and requires an abrupt pitch change, evasio=
n manouver. It&#39;d probably never happen to 99% of us.. but it could, are=
 you ready if it does?</p>

<p>3- Structural issue.. you hit a bird, or whatever and feel that the best=
 way to lighten the structural&nbsp;load on the airplane is to slow down..&=
nbsp; REALLY slow down..&nbsp; how slow would you go? Certainly not to the =
edge of stall.. and maybe the impact is such that if you slow to much you m=
ight lose control authority [roll control &#39;say&#39;] but if you don&#39=
;t know how your airframe behaves at 1.3x&nbsp; and are scared to slow that=
 much, are you really doing everything you can to slow the airplane down an=
d minimize structural load due to speed?</p>

<p>4- Failed gear extension. Wanna make a slow pass for the tower to have a=
 look, I&#39;d be wanting to go as slow as I feel is safe.. make sure they =
have lots of time to look at it.. doesn&#39;t mean I&#39;d be right at the =
stall.. but the slower I go.. the more chance they have to see what&#39;s w=
hat.</p>

<p>I&#39;m sure there are many many more. </p>
<p>When the day arrives and we get our 320 airborne I plan to know how to l=
earn how to fly it in the green arc and know how it behaves anywhere in the=
 green arc. That&#39;s not to say that I plan to spin it but I do plan to s=
tall it, and understand how it behaves at the bottom end of the arc. And, i=
f need be work to tame the stall to a point where it is controlable and pre=
dictable, and yes.. to do this may cause a hair raising trip or two. I will=
 be doing it w/ a parachute, and&nbsp;while&nbsp;I&#39;m not a huge fan of =
jumping,&nbsp;I&#39;ve jumped a few times before &amp;&nbsp;I will be prepa=
red. Is this testing going to be at tree top level.. hardly.. is it mandito=
ry, yes. Can it be accomplished with a reasonable degree of safety, YES. </=
p>

<p>I think often this type of testing during the manditory 25 is more of a =
&#39;ok we&#39;re slowing.. there&#39;s the buffet... add power.. ok.. we k=
now it will stall.. next item&quot; and leave it at that.. it&#39;s my opin=
ion that this is a poor form of flight testing. Often these a/c are built w=
/ the intent to get flying and going places and the testing phase is just a=
n&nbsp;annoying nuisnace&nbsp;standing between me and where I want to go w/=
 my a/c. The first 5-10 hrs are spent doing the nesc checks for sign off an=
d there-after it&#39;s just burning gas around the local airport until I ca=
n get my 25 in and get outta&#39;here..</p>

<p>In the 414 we shoot approaches at 110-120knt depending on load and the a=
irport, however I have done approaches into short strips w/ a lighter load =
at 90, it wasn&#39;t terribly comfortable but it was doable, because I knew=
 from training that the airframe would fly at those speeds.&nbsp;&nbsp; A e=
xtreme example is Bob Hoover.&nbsp;He&nbsp;could fly the pants off a Shrike=
 and it wasn&#39;t because he flew it fast, when he did his engine out rout=
ine he was using the airframe to either&nbsp;limit [fast and slow]. He was =
able to do this&nbsp;because he knew what it could and could not do. I&#39;=
m not saying we need to go to these extremes [Bob had tight margines to&nbs=
p;play w/&nbsp;when he did his routine and practiced it]&nbsp;but we should=
 be comfortable knowing our airplane in its normal flight envelope, from ei=
ther extreme of that envelope. If we are scared to fly to either end of tha=
t envelope then either we have to much airplane or we need more training/te=
sting to be comfortable in our plane. Spin/stall training and slow flight i=
s not dangerous when approached from the right perspective [and in the case=
 of spin training, completed in the right aircraft]. Don&#39;t spin your La=
ncair, but if your scared to stall it &quot;..&#39;cause it&#39;ll kill ya.=
.&quot; then there is REALLY something wrong w/&nbsp;the airframe and I wou=
ldn&#39;t fly in it period.. not until that issue is addressed and fixed. G=
A aircraft [and I mean traveling a/c, not aerobatic] should no be that unpr=
edictable, regardless whether it&#39;s an Experimental or not.</p>

<p>Ok.. I&#39;ve said my piece..&nbsp; Asbestos suite on..</p>
<p>Jarrett Johnson</p>
<p>235/320 55% [zero Lnc Hrs]</p></div></blockquote></div>

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