X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:55:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com ([205.158.62.67] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3097770 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:40:26 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.158.62.67; envelope-from=cfi@instructor.net Received: from wfilter3.us4.outblaze.com.int (wfilter3.us4.outblaze.com.int [192.168.8.242]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 4D5B118001A2 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:39:43 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.229) by wfilter3.us4.outblaze.com; 28 Aug 2008 12:39:25 -0000 Received: by ws1-4a.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 35198CD80FB; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:39:43 +0000 (GMT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_----------=_121992718322061" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Ron Galbraith" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" X-Original-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:39:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Anatomy of an ATC violation case (T Storm Avoidance) Received: from [204.108.8.5] by ws1-4a.us4.outblaze.com with http for cfi@instructor.net; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:39:43 -0400 X-Originating-Ip: 204.108.8.5 X-Originating-Server: ws1-4a.us4.outblaze.com In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Message-Id: <20080828123943.35198CD80FB@ws1-4a.us4.outblaze.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_----------=_121992718322061 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill, Your explanation is "sort of" correct. The fact is that there was an operational deviation in this case. An aircraft violated unauthorized airspace. In the ATC world sometimes this makes no sense that there is an error for hitting airspace, but none the less that's the way the system is set up. (and done so for obvious safety reasons to keep airplanes from hitting other airplanes). Controllers are required to report these OD's, but if the controller does not report it, and it's discovered at a later time, the controller can get into deep trouble including being fired. In this case with more than one facility being involved, there is no way this was not getting reported. So, once the OD happens, there is an investigation and some sort of fault will be the result. In this case it was a pilot deviation. If the pilot had declared an emergency, there would still have been an OD, a pilot deviation, and the investigation would still take place. That does not necessarily give the pilot a get out of jail free card. If you justify your actions, fill out the proper paperwork, and convince the safety inspector that you indeed had an emergency, then your get out of jail card will be played. In this case, the NTSB determined that there was no urgency to turn, one of the reasons was that the pilot didn't declare an emergency. I didn't see how far he was from the VOR where he said the weather was, but it must not have been all that close, and I suspect there is much more to this story than is being told. There could have been other airplanes just ahead of him not deviating too which may have convinced the board that there was no need to turn when he did. IF he would have declared an emergency, then it's likely the outcome would have been different because it's a lot easier to justify an action by declaring an emergency when it happens than it is to justify your action later by saying (at the NTSB hearing) that you were in an emergency situation because you are at that point trying to play the get of of jail free card, and it's too late by then. If you are getting into a life threatening situation it is up to you to declare an emergency and do whatever it takes to get out of the emergency. (not necessarily in that order). Once the emergency is over, then yes you can proceed on your way as if nothing happened, (with ATC clearance of course), but you will still have some explaining to do, and even if nothing is said to you at the time by ATC, you better be filling out the NASA form, and being prepared to submit a report to the FSDO. Another little known fact is that the controller can declare an emergency for you too. You may not feel the need to declare it, but the controller might. I've had this happen a few times. (as a controller). You may be asked to call the ATC facility when you get on the ground.(with or without an emergency) This is a very touchy subject. When I worked for a major aircraft manufacture' in flight test, we were told by the company lawyers to NEVER call. Having been on the other end however, most of the time they just want an explanation of what happened, but no matter how much you want to spill your guts to them, just be careful in what you say. Everything you say can be used against you in those calls. If you call and are remorseful, sorry for what happened(if it was your fault), or cooperative, then it's likely that you will never hear of that incident again. If you are belligerent, emotional, swearing, or complaining about the controllers or ATC system, then most likely you will hear of that incident again from the FSDO. Never get into a shouting match over the frequency even if you think the controller is a complete idiot. If you feel the need that something needs to be said, then ask for the controllers operating initials and a phone number where you can call.=20 There could be a situation where you just don't understand what's happening, so a call might clear it all up. Controllers don't do or say things just because they want to ruin your day. Ron Galbraith I'm the last person to claim to be a rules expert, so feel free to poke holes in this. It is my understanding that all the pilot need have done is declare an emergency for violent weather and declare to RAPCON that he was deviating from the assigned flight plan FOR THAT REASON. Emergency declared, no permission required to deviate as necessary for the safety of the aircraft - emergency to be terminated by the pilot once the danger was passed. Is this not correct? --_----------=_121992718322061 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill,
   Your explanation is "sort of" correct.  The fact= is that there was an operational deviation in this case.  An aircraft= violated unauthorized airspace.  In the ATC world sometimes this make= s no sense that there is an error for hitting airspace, but none the less t= hat's the way the system is set up. (and done so for obvious safety reasons= to keep airplanes from hitting other airplanes).  Controllers are req= uired to report these OD's, but if the controller does not report it, and i= t's discovered at a later time, the controller can get into deep trouble in= cluding being fired.  In this case with more than one facility being i= nvolved, there is no way this was not getting reported.  So, once the = OD happens, there is an investigation and some sort of fault will be the re= sult.  In this case it was a pilot deviation.  If the pilot had d= eclared an emergency, there would still have been an OD, a pilot deviation,= and the investigation would still take place. That does not necessarily gi= ve the pilot a get out of jail free card.  If you justify your actions= , fill out the proper paperwork, and convince the safety inspector that you= indeed had an emergency, then your get out of jail card will be played.&nb= sp; In this case, the NTSB determined that there was no urgency to turn, on= e of the reasons was that the pilot didn't declare an emergency.  = ; I didn't see how far he was from the VOR where he said the weather was, b= ut it must not have been all that close, and I suspect there is much more t= o this story than is being told.  There could have been other airplane= s just ahead of him not deviating too which may have convinced the board th= at there was no need to turn when he did.  IF he would have declared a= n emergency, then it's likely the outcome would have been different because= it's a lot easier to justify an action by declaring an emergency when it h= appens than it is to justify your action later by saying (at the NTSB heari= ng) that you were in an emergency situation because you are at that point t= rying to play the get of of jail free card, and it's too late by then. &nbs= p; If you are getting into a life threatening situation it is up to you to = declare an emergency and do whatever it takes to get out of the emergency.&= nbsp; (not necessarily in that order).  Once the emergency is over, th= en yes you can proceed on your way as if nothing happened, (with ATC cleara= nce of course), but you will still have some explaining to do, and even if = nothing is said to you at the time by ATC, you better be filling out the NA= SA form, and being prepared to submit a report to the FSDO.  Another l= ittle known fact is that the controller can declare an emergency for you to= o.  You may not feel the need to declare it, but the controller might.=   I've had this happen a few times. (as a controller).  You may b= e asked to call the ATC facility when you get on the ground.(with or withou= t an emergency)  This is a very touchy subject.  When I worked fo= r a major aircraft manufacture' in flight test, we were told by the company= lawyers to NEVER call.  Having been on the other end however, most of= the time they just want an explanation of what happened, but no matter how= much you want to spill your guts to them, just be careful in what you say.=   Everything you say can be used against you in those calls. &nbs= p; If you call and are remorseful, sorry for what happened(if it was your f= ault), or cooperative, then it's likely that you will never hear of that in= cident again.  If you are belligerent, emotional, swearing, or complai= ning about the controllers or ATC system, then most likely you will hear of= that incident again from the FSDO.  Never get into a shouting match o= ver the frequency even if you think the controller is a complete idiot. &nb= sp; If you feel the need that something needs to be said, then ask for the = controllers operating initials and a phone number where you can call. = There could be a situation where you just don't understand what's happenin= g, so a call might clear it all up.  Controllers don't do or say thing= s just because they want to ruin your day.

Ron Galbraith
 
I'm=20 the last person to claim to be a rules expert, so feel free to poke holes i= n=20 this.  It is my understanding that all the pilot need have done is dec= lare=20 an emergency for violent weather and declare to RAPCON that he was deviatin= g=20 from the assigned flight plan FOR THAT REASON.  Emergency declared, no= =20 permission required to deviate as necessary for the safety of the aircraft= =20 - emergency to be terminated by the pilot once the danger was passed.&= nbsp;=20
 
Is=20 this not correct?



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