X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:48:37 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mailgate-internal4.sri.com ([128.18.84.114] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with SMTP id 3096435 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:54:16 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=128.18.84.114; envelope-from=thomas.low@sri.com Received: from mars.esd.sri.com (128.18.26.200) by mailgate-internal4.sri.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2008 16:53:40 -0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_OOoYYBtfvpKNIkM1jhehUA)" Received: from tlowpc ([128.18.14.156]) by mars.esd.sri.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-3.01 (built Jul 12 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0K69006F2QXBFTB0@mars.esd.sri.com> for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Low X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Simulators, Training and "Slow flight" X-Original-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:53:40 -0700 X-Original-Message-id: <00ee01c90865$74d253f0$9c0e1280@esd.sri.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AckIZXS/nx1+WL6cTTSSbiT1ZkUsTA== X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_OOoYYBtfvpKNIkM1jhehUA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Some interesting discussions as of late. I feel compelled to add my two cents regarding the need to be comfortable with slow flight in our aircraft. Like Don Karich, I have a pile of "stick and rudder", experience.. I've been flying since before I could reach the rudder pedals or see over an instrument panel. I earned my private in a J-3 Cub in '79 at 18, and have logged just shy of 3,000 hours of recreational flying in everything from sailplanes, hang gliders, paragliders, and from simple low-performance airplanes to complex high-performance types. I am comfortable stalling, spinning, and recovering from such in any aircraft that has reliably demonstrated its ability to recover form such maneuvers. I routinely perform mild aerobatics in my Lancair well away from terrain and have about 250 hours in my Lancair 235. So, that being said, how do I approach slow flight/stalls in my Lancair? With the utmost respect. After reading accounts of LNC4 accidental spins out of aggravated stalls, with nearly 12000 feet of altitude lost while applying appropriate recovery control inputs, I decided not to "go there". I have done power off clean and dirty (landing configuration) stalls at 6000 AGL and these were a non-event, however I WILL NOT practice a departure stall or otherwise tempt a spin in my Lancair at any altitude. There is just no way of knowing if the aircraft would recover, and the small tail and short moment arm does nothing to boost my confidence. I know of one other 235 pilot that has performed multiple intentional spins and recovered, but since no two aircraft are identical, I do not assume my aircraft would do the same. In the pattern, I will not slow below 95 mph until short final. During flight reviews, I explain my reasoning, demonstrate my ability to handle the aircraft at pattern speeds, and I have never had an instructor insist that we explore the low end of the white arc. On a different topic, I have a professional background in aerodynamic modeling, and have created several high-fidelity real-time aerodynamic and systems models for engineering and certified flight training applications. MS Flight Sim and X-Plane, while fun and educational, are not up to the challenge of providing the kind of fidelity needed for type familiarity, let alone upset recovery training. That being said, if a group was serious about creating a high-fidelity simulator, I would be please to contribute to the effort with the development of a high fidelity aerodynamic model. The variations between our individual aircraft remain a challenge, but from mostly from a systems level. The aero models could be readily adapted model the range of variations between our aircraft. Tom Low --Boundary_(ID_OOoYYBtfvpKNIkM1jhehUA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Some interesting discussions as of late.  I feel compelled to add my two cents regarding the need to be comfortable with slow flight in our aircraft.  Like Don Karich, I have a pile of “stick and rudder”, experience…. I’ve been flying since before I could reach the rudder pedals or see over an instrument panel.  I earned my private in a J-3 Cub in ’79 at 18, and have logged just shy of 3,000 hours of recreational flying in everything from sailplanes, hang gliders, paragliders, and from simple low-performance airplanes to complex high-performance types.   I am comfortable stalling, spinning, and recovering from such in any aircraft that has reliably demonstrated its ability to recover form such maneuvers.  I routinely perform mild aerobatics in my Lancair well away from terrain and have about 250 hours in my Lancair 235. 

            So, that being said, how do I approach slow flight/stalls in my Lancair?  With the utmost respect.  After reading accounts of LNC4 accidental spins out of aggravated stalls, with nearly 12000 feet of altitude lost while applying appropriate recovery control inputs, I decided not to “go there”.  I have done power off clean and dirty (landing configuration) stalls at 6000 AGL and these were a non-event, however I WILL NOT practice a departure stall or otherwise tempt a spin in my Lancair at any altitude.  There is just no way of knowing if the aircraft would recover, and the small tail and short moment arm does nothing to boost my confidence.  I know of one other 235 pilot that has performed multiple intentional spins and recovered, but since no two aircraft are identical, I do not assume my aircraft would do the same.  In the pattern, I will not slow below 95 mph until short final. During flight reviews, I explain my reasoning, demonstrate my ability to handle the aircraft at pattern speeds, and I have never had an instructor insist that we explore the low end of the white arc.

            On a different topic, I have a professional background in aerodynamic modeling, and have created several high-fidelity real-time aerodynamic and systems models for engineering and certified flight training applications.  MS Flight Sim and X-Plane, while fun and educational, are not up to the challenge of providing the kind of fidelity needed for type familiarity, let alone upset recovery training.  That being said, if a group was serious about creating a high-fidelity simulator, I would be please to contribute to the effort with the development of a high fidelity aerodynamic model.   The variations between our individual aircraft remain a challenge, but from mostly from a systems level.  The aero models could be readily adapted model the range of variations between our aircraft.  

 

Tom Low

 

 

 

--Boundary_(ID_OOoYYBtfvpKNIkM1jhehUA)--