X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:50:52 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.201.202] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with SMTP id 3067414 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:12:45 -0400 Received: (qmail 53879 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Aug 2008 15:12:43 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=aKZ9Gj6F6iLt7ghoGeWudwaTaBkL8dgWdu4dOrGc3wOUa2Ox8F6tF7p/UInw4/IhiKVH1alK/XF/6Iixy0Jtz5nUMJzcLVu6wiQO/9ZC/7nA/n6RezCGtam1kEscHPdNzQEsHDRftNKmXhxMkQG+84wmIn/j7b7HUxkm/5Z6eiE=; Received: from [71.208.226.156] by web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 08:12:43 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.218 X-Original-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 08:12:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Art Jensen Reply-To: flycassutts@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [LML] Oshkosh Accidents X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1877156148-1218208363=:52663" X-Original-Message-ID: <726709.52663.qm@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1877156148-1218208363=:52663 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I certainly agree with your assesment.=A0=20 =A0 I have problems every year getting in.=A0 This year I made it to the down w= ind point and had to pull out to go around to Ripon again for a second atte= mpt.=A0 It was getting backed up with too many slow airplanes in front of m= e and this was the safest option.=A0 On the second attempt I tried to set u= p for a normal pattern but was instructed to keep the down wind tight.=A0 I= then tried to extend my down wind to at least over the edge of the lake bu= t was instructed to turn base now and keep it tight.=A0=20 =A0 My wife is also a pilot, we had talked about how we would handle the approa= ch phase before flying to Oshkosh.=A0 Her job was to watch altitude and air= speed.=A0 If I busted either she was to call it to my attention and make su= re I took corrective action.=A0 Even with this assistance, I feel that the = controllers are demanding that we fly tighter patterns than we are used to = and the slower traffic causes us to fly slower to stay in trail than we wou= ld normally fly the pattern.=A0 Knowing what to expect flying into Oshkosh = is a good thing but if we are not up to speed then we need training for slo= w and tight patterns before we go.=A0=20 =A0 Of course this training will not be able to simulate the pressures of the a= ctual flight but it would help.=A0 It would also help if the controllers wo= uld let us make wider patterns. =A0 Just my opinion! =A0 Art --- On Thu, 8/7/08, Giffen Marr wrote: From: Giffen Marr Subject: [LML] Oshkosh Accidents To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 2:09 PM It appears that the majority of accidents are a result of stall/spin accide= nts with arriving traffic. Is it possible that the approach procedures are = a little to tight for novice/low proficiency pilots in the very intense app= roach phase atmosphere?=20 =A0 I know the controllers are very anxious to keep the traffic tight to facili= tate the arrival flow. I know that I have been told to turn base and expedi= te my landing and clear the runway for arriving higher speed traffic (P-51)= .=20 All of our training is based on one runway, one airplane. This may be the f= irst time many pilots are faced with one runway and 1, 2, or 3 airplanes al= l landing at the same time. Truly, not part of our normal training. I can t= ell you from my own personnel experience that I am in a very high state of = awareness at to what the other airplanes are doing and my concern that some= one will not execute the landing properly, so I am always primed for a go-a= round. =A0 Giff Marr =A0=0A=0A=0A --0-1877156148-1218208363=:52663 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I certainly agree with your assesment. 
 
I have problems every year getting in.  This year I made it to the down wind point and had to pull out to go around to Ripon again for a second attempt.  It was getting backed up with too many slow airplanes in front of me and this was the safest option.  On the second attempt I tried to set up for a normal pattern but was instructed to keep the down wind tight.  I then tried to extend my down wind to at least over the edge of the lake but was instructed to turn base now and keep it tight. 
 
My wife is also a pilot, we had talked about how we would handle the approach phase before flying to Oshkosh.  Her job was to watch altitude and airspeed.  If I busted either she was to call it to my attention and make sure I took corrective action.  Even with this assistance, I feel that the controllers are demanding that we fly tighter patterns than we are used to and the slower traffic causes us to fly slower to stay in trail than we would normally fly the pattern.  Knowing what to expect flying into Oshkosh is a good thing but if we are not up to speed then we need training for slow and tight patterns before we go. 
 
Of course this training will not be able to simulate the pressures of the actual flight but it would help.  It would also help if the controllers would let us make wider patterns.
 
Just my opinion!
 
Art

--- On Thu, 8/7/08, Giffen Marr <GAMarr@Charter.Net> wrote:
From: Giffen Marr <GAMarr@Charter.Net>
Subject: [LML] Oshkosh Accidents
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 2:09 PM

It appears that the majority of accidents are a result of stall/spin accidents with arriving traffic. Is it possible that the approach procedures are a little to tight for novice/low proficiency pilots in the very intense approach phase atmosphere?

 

I know the controllers are very anxious to keep the traffic tight to facilitate the arrival flow. I know that I have been told to turn base and expedite my landing and clear the runway for arriving higher speed traffic (P-51).


All of our training is based on one runway, one airplane. This may be the first time many pilots are faced with one runway and 1, 2, or 3 airplanes all landing at the same time. Truly, not part of our normal training. I can tell you from my own personnel experience that I am in a very high state of awareness at to what the other airplanes are doing and my concern that someone will not execute the landing properly, so I am always primed for a go-around.

 

Giff Marr

 


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