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All of the responses have been great. It does take a special skill to finish these things well. However, its not hard to learn its just boring,tidious work.
If I'd known how much time and money I'd be spending on micro and finish work I wouldnt have started a composite airplane.
My first experience with composites was a plans built rutan type design. I always wanted a Lancair because they were premolded. And of course really nice airplanes. But I always thought that since the parts were molded they would be easier to finish. Boy was I WRONG.
I will finish my 360 but I can definitly say. "I wouldnt do it again"
Bryan
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "btsim1@earthlink.net" <btsim1@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:09:03
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Finishing Costs
Well....
On a IV, if most of the micro work, but no priming, is complete, 20 grand
is a reasonable figure, BUT...
There are so many variables that I really can't give an "estimate" without
knowing quite a bit more about what we would be doing.
For instance; if you did your own micro work or priming, do you have any
clue what you are doing? Are we going to have to do the belly or did you do
it back when the plane could be turned over? Are the wings coming off? How
many colors? Striping? Are we painting any interior areas such as the
overhead console? Do you want any lettering, such as fuel quantity, painted
on? Is the interior already in? Are we polishing hinges and fuel caps? Did
you use Scheme Designers or do we have to "guess" what you really want?
What about gaps; too big/small? Gear wells? Inside of canopy? Are all of
your countersinks perfectly flush?(If so, they are too deep...) Do you want
paint on all the flanges underneath access panels?
The above list is probably about 50% of the things we would need to know
(in addition to seeing the project) in order to accurately quote a complete
paint job. Obviously an ES is more than a IV which is more than a Legacy
due to size, but the difference isn't always as much as you might imagine.
If you have never done bodywork, or even if you have experience with auto
bodywork, it is imperative that you get instruction or have your work
checked before you progress too far from the initial shaping stage. If the
early work isn't correct, all of the later smoothing and scratch filling
will be useless. Imagine the frustration (and expense) of watching many
hours and dollars of your work fall to the floor as I sand it all off with
80 grit...
Periodically we have folks come in with some of their parts for a little
"hands on" training. You do the work on your own parts, under our
supervision, concentrating on whatever stage you feel the need to improve,
or we can take certain parts, such as flaps or wheel pants all the way to
"paint ready".
In addition to the educational aspect, you actually get a little work done!
Or, you may choose to have us come out onsite to evaluate, train, and
assist you in preparing for paint. If we get involved in the early stages
we can help you acquire the skills, tools, and supplies necessary to
complete the vast majority of bodywork yourself. We'll help you break it up
into stages so it doesn't seem as bad as it really is!
Regards,
Brad Simmons
Airframes Inc.
Milan, TN
btsim1@earthlink.net
731-686-3610
> [Original Message]
> From: Janie & Ed Smith <2luv2fly@cox.net>
> To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
> Date: 8/4/2008 10:38:06 PM
> Subject: [LML] Finishing Costs
>
> Bryan Wullner,
>
> I saw the post by Jeff Edwards that your $9400.00 cost of finishing
sounded
> high. Well, I disagree - sounds too cheap! If you are paying a
qualified
> individual who knows the difference between a "low and high" spot, you
have
> only bought about 6 weeks of work and I can assure you that to get one of
> these Lancair fuselages and wings smooth, it will take much more work
than
> that!
>
> Maybe the 360 is easier to finish than the IV-P, but I can honestly tell
you
> that we have spent over 700 hours sanding, filling, priming and painting
our
> IV-P! That equates to over $20,000 and we still aren't finished.
>
> I know that there are shops that can do that work much faster and maybe
> cheaper, but this bodywork, like all of my other lessons learned while
> building this airplane, didn't come cheap! This type of work is best
left
> to the professionals. I wish I had sent mine to someone like Brad
Simmons
> and just said "fix it" and write the check! Probably would have been
> cheaper!
>
> There are so many "hidden costs" when doing this type of work. When you
> check the prices of sandpaper, fairing boards, DA sander, masking paper,
> masking tape, "blue line" striping tape, clean-up thinner, etc, you then
> begin to get a feel for the cost of a quality job. The paper we used for
> our fairing boards costs over $3.00 per sheet and I couldn't guess how
many
> sheets we used! Tape is anywhere from $4 - $7.00 a roll (depending on
> width). Paper - well, I tell you - it "ain't" newspaper! How about the
> costs of filters, so you will have clean air in the paint booth? See
what I
> mean? The list is endless.
>
> Brad, I know you monitor this list, so let's hear from the experts. What
is
> a "ballpark" estimate to take a IV-P from rough kit form and make it into
a
> thing of beauty? There are so many variables with this type of work, but
is
> it $10K or $30K or even $50K??
>
> I know this all sounds like sour grapes and it is - - - because I am in
the
> midst of this part of our project and I tell you - - I don't get much
> satisfaction from all the do's and re-do's. Painting has many more
things
> that can go wrong rather than right - I promise you that! If your body
work
> guy does good work, give him a "big hug"! If he does what he says he is
> going to do when he says he is going to do it, then you have a rare gem
in
> the bodywork business. Most of those guys (or gals) aren't very
dependable
> and always have an excuse. So, if you have a dependable guy, give him
> another "big hug"!
>
> You have to remember - no one will ever see all your hard work of
building.
> All they will ever see is the instrument panel, paint job and interior!
If
> the paint looks good, then in their minds "that is a nice airplane".
>
> I don't know if you have ever seen Jeff's airplane or not, but I will bet
> you that he didn't pay $10K for his bodywork and paint! Right Jeff?? It
> was beautiful when it had just been finished and it still looks good
after
> all these years of flying and I suspect it was because it was a quality
job
> to begin with and quality materials were used. It does make a difference.
>
> Would I do it again?? MAYBE! I have gotten what I wanted - the way I
> wanted it and when I wanted it (mostly). But, I will tell you this - I
will
> be glad when it is over with and I get to fly my creation! Amen.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Smith
> Chesapeake, VA
> N9JE Building (IV-P)
>
>
>
>
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