X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:31:44 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from col0-omc3-s6.col0.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.144] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3064877 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:21:59 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.55.34.144; envelope-from=bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Received: from COL104-W18 ([65.55.34.137]) by col0-omc3-s6.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:21:17 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_37e236e5-2ca9-4783-80a3-de6eac960935_" X-Originating-IP: [71.111.166.42] From: Bill Kennedy X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Clearing up some information about the Legacy accident. X-Original-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:21:16 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2008 23:21:17.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[20A1F6F0:01C8F81B] --_37e236e5-2ca9-4783-80a3-de6eac960935_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By all means=2C five knots below target should alert the pilot. However=2C = my airplane (320) has very honest warning through the control stick. I don'= t know how you could miss the warning the airplane controls transmit to my = hands and brain. It starts with a "tickle" and proceeds to very heavy buffe= ting prior to the full stall. If a guy could fly past that and miss the imp= ending stall=2C I'd guess that his AOA is way beyond his grasp. I have a "z= ero" knot tolerance for slow speed. I like dead on-speed and will accept 1-= 2 knots fast=2C but will correct back to on-speed. Slow is not acceptable -= - ADD POWER NOW! I don't mean an automatic go-around=2C just very urgent ac= tion. If it's really FUBAR=2C go-around. I do have a poor man's AOA of sorts. If I'm on speed=2C my nose just obscur= es my aim point. Anything beyond that is way too slow -- ADD POWER NOW!=20 I am not bad mouthing AOAs. If my EFIS had a provision for one=2C I'd buy t= he sensor. I do not feel that I'm taking undo risk flying without one thoug= h. Is my plane the only one that shakes before it stalls/snaps? Do our pilots = not recognize what the plane is telling them? To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed=2C 6 Aug 2008 15:32:49 -0400 From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: Clearing up some information about the Legacy accident. At what point do "we pilots" recognize and recover? When we are upside down= ? When we are in a deep stall or when we are 5 knots below our target speed= in the pattern? =0A= =0A= Jeff =0A= CFI =0A= =0A= just like mine would do if I didn't know how to recognize and recover=20 =0A= =0A= =0A= -----Original Message----- =0A= From: Bill Kennedy =0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A= Sent: Mon=2C 4 Aug 2008 10:37 pm =0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Clearing up some information about the Legacy accident. =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= "...upside down at about 45 degree angle" sure sounds like a full stall wit= h a snap roll=2C just like mine would do if I didn't know how to recognize = and recover from the situation before it turned so bad. What else could do = it? =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A= Date: Mon=2C 4 Aug 2008 13:41:51 -0400 =0A= From: cfi@instructor.net =0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Clearing up some information about the Legacy accident. =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Another article that was circulating said they caught a wing and tumbled on= landing. That just isn't true. They impacted the ground totally upside d= own at about 45 degree angle and slid 140'. The impact zone and debris fie= ld was lined up with the runway=2C so was not a base to final stall spin. = The engine was developing power by the look of the prop blades=2C all contr= ol surfaces were intact and the flaps were fully deployed and appeared to b= e down the same amount. The speedbrakes were slightly deployed the same on= each wing=2C but I suppose that might have been because of the high impact= . The wings were still attached=2C and actually the entire airframe was ba= sically still together. I was at the crash site (with the NTSB guys) with= Joe just after the accident. The NTSB will release a preliminary report n= ext week. =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Ron Galbraith =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= >Geez=2C there is so much dis-information that gets sprinkled around the ne= t=2C =0A= >it's just amazing. =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =3D =0A= It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends and gadgets that make= the grade on AOL Shopping. =0A= --_37e236e5-2ca9-4783-80a3-de6eac960935_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
By all means= =2C five knots below target should alert the pilot. However=2C my airplane = (320) has very honest warning through the control stick. I don't know how y= ou could miss the warning the airplane controls transmit to my hands and br= ain. It starts with a "tickle" and proceeds to very heavy buffeting prior t= o the full stall. If a guy could fly past that and miss the impending stall= =2C I'd guess that his AOA is way beyond his grasp. I have a "zero" knot to= lerance for slow speed. I like dead on-speed and will accept 1-2 knots fast= =2C but will correct back to on-speed. Slow is not acceptable -- ADD POWER = NOW! I don't mean an automatic go-around=2C just very urgent action. If it'= s really FUBAR=2C go-around.

I do have a poor man's AOA of sorts. If= I'm on speed=2C my nose just obscures my aim point. Anything beyond that i= s way too slow -- ADD POWER NOW!

I am not bad mouthing AOAs. If my = EFIS had a provision for one=2C I'd buy the sensor. I do not feel that I'm = taking undo risk flying without one though.

Is my plane the only one= that shakes before it stalls/snaps? Do our pilots not recognize what the p= lane is telling them?



To: l= ml@lancaironline.net
Date: Wed=2C 6 Aug 2008 15:32:49 -0400
From: vta= iljeff@aol.com
Subject: [LML] Re: Clearing up some information about the= Legacy accident.

At what point do "we pilots" recognize and recover= ? When we are upside down? When we are in a deep stall or when we are 5 kno= ts below our target speed in the pattern?
=0A=
=0A= Jeff
=0A= CFI
=0A= =0A=
j= ust like mine would do if I didn't know how to recognize and recover
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= -----Original Message-----
=0A= From: Bill Kennedy <=3Bbill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com>=3B
=0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net
=0A= Sent: Mon=2C 4 Aug 2008 10:37 pm
=0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Clearing up some information about the Legacy accident.<= br>=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
"...upside down at about 45 degree angle= " sure sounds like a full stall with a snap roll=2C just like mine would do= if I didn't know how to recognize and recover from the situation before it= turned so bad. What else could do it?
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= =0A=
=0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net
= =0A= Date: Mon=2C 4 Aug 2008 13:41:51 -0400
=0A= From: cfi@instructor.net
=0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Clearing up some information about the Legacy accident.<= br>=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=
Another article that was circulating said they caught a wing and tumbl= ed on landing. =3B That just isn't true. =3B They impacted the grou= nd totally upside down at about 45 degree angle and slid 140'. =3B The = impact zone and debris field was lined up with the runway=2C so was not a b= ase to final stall spin. =3B The engine was developing power by the loo= k of the prop blades=2C all control surfaces were intact and the flaps were= fully deployed and appeared to be down the same amount. =3B =3BThe= speedbrakes were slightly deployed the same on each wing=2C but I suppose&= nbsp=3Bthat might have been because of the high impact. =3B The wings w= ere still attached=2C and actually the entire airframe was basically still = together. =3B =3B I was =3Bat the =3Bcrash site =3B(wit= h the =3BNTSB guys) with Joe =3Bjust after the accident. =3B Th= e NTSB will release a preliminary report next week. =3B
=0A= =0A= =0A=
 =3B =3B =3B
=0A= =0A= =0A=
 =3B
=0A= =0A= =0A=
Ron Galbraith
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= >=3BGeez=2C there is so much dis-information that gets sprinkled around t= he net=2C
=0A= >=3Bit's just amazing.
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A= =3D
=0A=
It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends and gadget= s that make the grade on AOL Shopping. <= /div>=0A= = --_37e236e5-2ca9-4783-80a3-de6eac960935_--