X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:32:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.6] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3063121 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:23:40 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id q.d4e.32ec610f (37568) for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 19:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.146]) by cia-mb04.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB045-92c04898e0f7205; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:23:35 -0400 Received: from WEBMAIL-MC03 (webmail-mc03.webmail.aol.com [64.12.170.80]) by smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA034-5bbd4898e0f2225; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:23:30 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Finishing Costs X-Original-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:23:30 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 75.58.186.34 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CAC5696816BE48_1274_2F75_WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38159-STANDARD Received: from 75.58.186.34 by WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com (64.12.170.80) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:23:30 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CAC569680D34D4-1274-179F@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CAC5696816BE48_1274_2F75_WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ed, I agree that my paint job & finish did not come close to $10,000, but having said that the impression that I got was the gent who posted the mail said he had spent almost $10k on a 360 for bodywork and was nowhere close to being finished. A 360 is a lot smaller than?a IVP. I agree that Brad Simmons would be in a much better position to give a good estimate. I have seen too many fellows do and redo the project-- at great expense to themselves. The Lancair forum is a great way to save?a bunch of money. Jeff I don't know if you have ever seen Jeff's airplane or not, but I will bet you that he didn't pay $10K for his bodywork and paint! Right Jeff?? It was beautiful when it had just been finished and it still looks good after all these years of flying and I suspect it was because it was a quality job to begin with and quality materials were used. It does make a difference. -----Original Message----- From: Janie & Ed Smith <2luv2fly@cox.net> To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:37 pm Subject: [LML] Finishing Costs Bryan Wullner,? ? I saw the post by Jeff Edwards that your $9400.00 cost of finishing sounded high. Well, I disagree - sounds too cheap! If you are paying a qualified individual who knows the difference between a "low and high" spot, you have only bought about 6 weeks of work and I can assure you that to get one of these Lancair fuselages and wings smooth, it will take much more work than that!? ? Maybe the 360 is easier to finish than the IV-P, but I can honestly tell you that we have spent over 700 hours sanding, filling, priming and painting our IV-P! That equates to over $20,000 and we still aren't finished.? ? I know that there are shops that can do that work much faster and maybe cheaper, but this bodywork, like all of my other lessons learned while building this airplane, didn't come cheap! This type of work is best left to the professionals. I wish I had sent mine to someone like Brad Simmons and just said "fix it" and write the check! Probably would have been cheaper!? ? There are so many "hidden costs" when doing this type of work. When you check the prices of sandpaper, fairing boards, DA sander, masking paper, masking tape, "blue line" striping tape, clean-up thinner, etc, you then begin to get a feel for the cost of a quality job. The paper we used for our fairing boards costs over $3.00 per sheet and I couldn't guess how many sheets we used! Tape is anywhere from $4 - $7.00 a roll (depending on width). Paper - well, I tell you - it "ain't" newspaper! How about the costs of filters, so you will have clean air in the paint booth? See what I mean? The list is endless.? ? Brad, I know you monitor this list, so let's hear from the experts. What is a "ballpark" estimate to take a IV-P from rough kit form and make it into a thing of beauty? There are so many variables with this type of work, but is it $10K or $30K or even $50K??? ? I know this all sounds like sour grapes and it is - - - because I am in the midst of this part of our project and I tell you - - I don't get much satisfaction from all the do's and re-do's. Painting has many more things that can go wrong rather than right - I promise you that! If your body work guy does good work, give him a "big hug"! If he does what he says he is going to do when he says he is going to do it, then you have a rare gem in the bodywork business. Most of those guys (or gals) aren't very dependable and always have an excuse. So, if you have a dependable guy, give him another "big hug"!? ? You have to remember - no one will ever see all your hard work of building. All they will ever see is the instrument panel, paint job and interior! If the paint looks good, then in their minds "that is a nice airplane".? ? I don't know if you have ever seen Jeff's airplane or not, but I will bet you that he didn't pay $10K for his bodywork and paint! Right Jeff?? It was beautiful when it had just been finished and it still looks good after all these years of flying and I suspect it was because it was a quality job to begin with and quality materials were used. It does make a difference.? ? Would I do it again?? MAYBE! I have gotten what I wanted - the way I wanted it and when I wanted it (mostly). But, I will tell you this - I will be glad when it is over with and I get to fly my creation! Amen.? ? Regards,? ? Ed Smith? Chesapeake, VA? N9JE Building (IV-P)? ? ? --? For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html? ----------MB_8CAC5696816BE48_1274_2F75_WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Ed,

I agree that my paint job & finish did not come close to $10,000, but having said that the impression that I got was the gent who posted the mail said he had spent almost $10k on a 360 for bodywork and was nowhere close to being finished. A 360 is a lot smaller than a IVP. I agree that Brad Simmons would be in a much better position to give a good estimate.

I have seen too many fellows do and redo the project-- at great expense to themselves. The Lancair forum is a great way to save a bunch of money.

Jeff
I don't know if you have ever seen Jeff's airplane or not, but I will bet you that he didn't pay $10K for his bodywork and paint! Right Jeff?? It was beautiful when it had just been finished and it still looks good after all these years of flying and I suspect it was because it was a quality job to begin with and quality materials were used. It does make a difference.



-----Original Message-----
From: Janie & Ed Smith <2luv2fly@cox.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:37 pm
Subject: [LML] Finishing Costs

Bryan Wullner, 
 
I saw the post by Jeff Edwards that your $9400.00 cost of finishing sounded high. Well, I disagree - sounds too cheap! If you are paying a qualified individual who knows the difference between a "low and high" spot, you have only bought about 6 weeks of work and I can assure you that to get one of these Lancair fuselages and wings smooth, it will take much more work than that! 
 
Maybe the 360 is easier to finish than the IV-P, but I can honestly tell you that we have spent over 700 hours sanding, filling, priming and painting our IV-P! That equates to over $20,000 and we still aren't finished. 
 
I know that there are shops that can do that work much faster and maybe cheaper, but this bodywork, like all of my other lessons learned while building this airplane, didn't come cheap! This type of work is best left to the professionals. I wish I had sent mine to someone like Brad Simmons and just said "fix it" and write the check! Probably would have been cheaper! 
 
There are so many "hidden costs" when doing this type of work. When you check the prices of sandpaper, fairing boards, DA sander, masking paper, masking tape, "blue line" striping tape, clean-up thinner, etc, you then begin to get a feel for the cost of a quality job. The paper we used for our fairing boards costs over $3.00 per sheet and I couldn't guess how many sheets we used! Tape is anywhere from $4 - $7.00 a roll (depending on width). Paper - well, I tell you - it "ain't" newspaper! How about the costs of filters, so you will have clean air in the paint booth? See what I mean? The list is endless. 
 
Brad, I know you monitor this list, so let's hear from the experts. What is a "ballpark" estimate to take a IV-P from rough kit form and make it into a thing of beauty? There are so many variables with this type of work, but is it $10K or $30K or even $50K?? 
 
I know this all sounds like sour grapes and it is - - - because I am in the midst of this part of our project and I tell you - - I don't get much satisfaction from all the do's and re-do's. Painting has many more things that can go wrong rather than right - I promise you that! If your body work guy does good work, give him a "big hug"! If he does what he says he is going to do when he says he is going to do it, then you have a rare gem in the bodywork business. Most of those guys (or gals) aren't very dependable and always have an excuse. So, if you have a dependable guy, give him another "big hug"! 
 
You have to remember - no one will ever see all your hard work of building. All they will ever see is the instrument panel, paint job and interior! If the paint looks good, then in their minds "that is a nice airplane". 
 
I don't know if you have ever seen Jeff's airplane or not, but I will bet you that he didn't pay $10K for his bodywork and paint! Right Jeff?? It was beautiful when it had just been finished and it still looks good after all these years of flying and I suspect it was because it was a quality job to begin with and quality materials were used. It does make a difference. 
 
Would I do it again?? MAYBE! I have gotten what I wanted - the way I wanted it and when I wanted it (mostly). But, I will tell you this - I will be glad when it is over with and I get to fly my creation! Amen. 
 
Regards, 
 
Ed Smith 
Chesapeake, VA 
N9JE Building (IV-P) 
 
 
-- 
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