X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:16:41 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.99] (HELO imo-m11.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3026774 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:51:52 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id q.cad.3729625e (34911) for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-ma02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.141]) by cia-da02.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIADA028-885f487cb983277; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:51:47 -0400 Received: from MBLK-M06 (mblk-m06.mblk.aol.com [64.12.136.39]) by smtprly-ma02.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.10) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA025-5c4f487cb9777; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:51:35 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Accidents X-Original-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:51:35 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 75.49.225.53 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CAB4A1697D30C4_6FC_30DC_MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 37668-STANDARD Received: from 75.49.225.53 by MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com (64.12.136.39) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:51:35 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CAB4A169714516-6FC-1896@MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CAB4A1697D30C4_6FC_30DC_MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Matt, I do not have nay information on the accident pilots as to wheter or not the= y have been throuhg any Lancair specific training-except for the Provo, UT c= rash. The owner/ pilot had been through HPAT less than a month before the ac= cident but then proceeded to ignore the sage advice given.=20 In my experience as an accident investigator-- many of the pilots do not get= type specific training, are not current, etc. One case recently involved a=20= pilot with one flight review in 30 years of flying and infrequent FAA medica= l exams.. The ones that do take the trainig are often flying against very so= und advice.=20 These accidents affect your pocket book. Insurance for the IVP (if you can g= et it) will certainly be much higher. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: m miriani To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 6:51 am Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents Jeff =C2=A0 Any info on these recent lancair accidents in regards to how many of the pil= ots had some type of annual=C2=A0HPAT or similar=C2=A0training, or any at al= l in their IVP? I have been to school twice over the years and havent even f= inished the aircraft yet. Most valuable training I have had and opened my ey= es about how the lancairs respond without thrust. It is a managable handfull= . I wouldnt consider flying it without annual training. =C2=A0 Matt Miriani IVP Hoping to fly this summer --- On Sun, 7/13/08, VTAILJEFF@aol.com wrote: From: VTAILJEFF@aol.com Subje ct: [LML] Re: Accidents To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 1:14 PM Charlie has great=C2=A0advice=C2=A0here. We could probably cut the IVP accid= ent rate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering Cu. You=20= are NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So your opt= ions are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that develop in=20= the summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts.=20 =C2=A0 You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot visually= see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to these things.=20= Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time lag of up to= 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depicted or more= . As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement, which is=20= very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these things or plan=20= a very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side. =C2=A0 Descisions to go between cells in a line should not=C2=A0be taken lightly. C= an you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the other side? How=20= wide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closing? How can yo= u tell?=C2=A0What are the tops of the=C2=A0cu in the break? What is on the o= ther side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What is you escape ro= ute if you poke your nose in it and it closes up?=20 =C2=A0 I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and suspenders). There are differences between the two= =C2=A0nexrad images that are important. One may be painting orange while the= other is green. I choose the most conservative route of the tow shown. =C2=A0 If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Canada or Ala= ska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside of CONUS.= Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this year. =C2=A0 I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I landed in S= t. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes after I=20= landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Brady flew into= that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his wreckage was scat= tered over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he penetrated t= he storm.=20 =C2=A0 Living in St. Louis=C2=A0 has made every trip this year one with thunderstor= ms. I have not topped one yet.=20 =C2=A0 Be careful out there! =C2=A0 Jeff =C2=A0 In a message dated 7/12/2008 7:47:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, charliekohl= er@yahoo.com writes: =C2=A0 Hi Colyn, IMHO the safest approach to summertime towering cumulus is to stay VMC. On t= op- is best if the air is not electrically charged -- if not able-- go down=20= to 3000 feet-- below the bases (VMC) (check terrain clearance)-- and always=20= be vigilant for lightning and hail on the downwind side-- yes--stay out of the green (if only to protect your paint).=20 And in regards to diversions-- go early when the heading corrections are 10=20= to 20=C2=B0. Not when you're in a box canyon and you need a 90=C2=B0 to a 18= 0=C2=B0 course change. You'll notice that large holes and openings from 100=20= miles out will close up by the time you get there. And it would've been bett= er to take that 20=C2=B0 heading cut to go around the up wind side before yo= u got there. Saves time too. =C2=A0 And=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks-- =C2=A0Thanks-- Charlie K. See=C2=A0me on the Web at=C2=A0 www.Lancair-IV.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Colyn Case at earthlink To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:11:54 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents Charlie, thanks for this. =C2=A0 Are you proposing no IMC up high period or just staying 2X recommended dista= nce from what you see on xm?=C2=A0 (maybe even staying out of all green if y= ou are high and imc). =C2=A0 Colyn =C2=A0 Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your= area - Check out TourTracker.com! ----------MB_8CAB4A1697D30C4_6FC_30DC_MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Matt,

I do not have nay information on the accident pilots as to wheter or not the= y have been throuhg any Lancair specific training-except for the Provo, UT c= rash. The owner/ pilot had been through HPAT less than a month before the ac= cident but then proceeded to ignore the sage advice given.

In my experience as an accident investigator-- many of the pilots do not get= type specific training, are not current, etc. One case recently involved a=20= pilot with one flight review in 30 years of flying and infrequent FAA medica= l exams.. The ones that do take the trainig are often flying against very so= und advice.

These accidents affect your pocket book. Insurance for the IVP (if you can g= et it) will certainly be much higher.

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: m miriani <lancair33@yahoo.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 6:51 am
Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents

Jeff
 
Any info on these recent lancair accidents in regards to how many of th= e pilots had some type of annual HPAT or similar training, or any=20= at all in their IVP? I have been to school twice over the years and havent e= ven finished the aircraft yet. Most valuable training I have had and opened=20= my eyes about how the lancairs respond without thrust. It is a managable han= dfull. I wo uldnt consider flying it without annual training.
 
Matt Miriani
IVP Hoping to fly this summer

--- On Sun, 7/13/08, VTAILJEFF@aol.c= om <VTAILJEFF@aol.com>= wrote:
From: VTAILJEFF@ao= l.com <VTAILJEFF@aol.com>=
Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 1:14 PM

Charlie has great advice here. We could probably cut the IVP=20= accident rate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering Cu.= You are NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So you= r options are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that develo= p in the summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts.
 
You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot vis= ually see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to these thi= ngs. Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time lag of=20= up to 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depicted or= more. As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement, whi ch is very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these things or= plan a very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side.
 
Descisions to go between cells in a line should not be taken light= ly. Can you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the other side?= How wide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closing? How c= an you tell? What are the tops of the cu in the break? What is on=20= the other side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What is you esca= pe route if you poke your nose in it and it closes up?
 
I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and suspende= rs). There are differences between the two nexrad images that are impor= tant. One may be painting orange while the other is green. I choose the most= conservative route of the tow shown.
 
If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Canada o= r Alaska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside of C= ONUS. Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this year.
 
I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I landed= in St. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes aft= er I landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Brady flew= into that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his20wreckage wa= s scattered over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he penetr= ated the storm.
 
Living in St. Louis  has made every trip this year one with thunde= rstorms. I have not topped one yet.
 
Be careful out there!
 
Jeff
 
In a message dated 7/12/2008 7:47:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, charliekohler@yahoo.com writes:
 
Hi Colyn,
IMHO the safest approach to summertime towering cumulus is to stay VMC.= On top- is best if the air is not electrically charged -- if not able-- go=20= down to 3000 feet-- below the bases (VMC) (check terrain clearance)-- and al= ways be vigilant for lightning and hail on the downwind side--
yes--stay out of the green (if only to protect your paint).
And in regards to diversions-- go early when the heading corrections ar= e 10 to 20=C2=B0. Not when you're in a box canyon and you need a 90=C2=B0 to= a 180=C2=B0 course change. You'll notice that large holes and openings from= 100 miles out will close up by the time you get there. And it would've=3D2 0been better to take that 20=C2=B0 heading cut to go around the up wind side= before you got there. Saves time too.
 
And  Thanks--
Charlie K.
See me on the Web at  w= ww.Lancair-IV.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Colyn Case at earthlink <colyncase@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:11:54 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents

Charlie, thanks for this.
 
Are you proposing no IMC up high period or=20= just staying 2X recommended distance from what you see on xm?  (maybe e= ven staying out of all green if you are high and imc).
 
Colyn
 



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