X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:16:41 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.101] (HELO imo-m13.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3026855 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:43:42 -0400 Received: from RMiller904@aol.com by imo-m13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id q.c0b.39504652 (30738) for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:43:34 -0400 (EDT) From: RMiller904@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:43:34 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Accidents X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1216136614" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag:NO -------------------------------1216136614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sure have to agree with that one, visual only to get threw them, I have a 496 and fly threw thunderstorms here in Florida daily, but it only helps, you have to see a way threw and even then it can sure get rough, not to mention the hail. Fly safe, go around, under or whatever you have to do but not threw blindly. Ron _www.ronsflying.com_ (http://www.ronsflying.com/) In a message dated 7/15/2008 7:51:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cfi@instructor.net writes: I'd like to add a little to what Jeff and Charlie is saying. The ARTCC's use WARP, which is nothing more than a mosaic NEXRAD very much like XM or WSI. As a matter of fact it's not as good as either of those services. It only shows 3 levels of precipitation, and is also not real time weather. The lag is about 8 minutes, but can be much longer. If you are relying on the Center controller to vector you around a thunderstorm, you are potentially getting into more trouble than you would on your own. Really guys, you gotta use visual to get around Thunderstorms and give an extra wide margin. ATC is not required to keep you out of the weather it's up to you to do that. They are required to advise you as to what they see in front of you by phraseology such as: "Lancair zero 9 Lima, moderate to heavy precipitation 12 o'clock 15 miles, extends 20 miles along your rounte". If you want them to help you, then it is up to you to ask them and they will vector you around what they are seeing if that's what you are requesting. There is a new system that is in prototype right now that will be much better, and predicts the path of storms that will be available to ATC, but that will be a while before it's usable. I use XM on every flight I take and find it to be very useful, but I don't rely on just that. It's very easy to use it as a weather radar type system, but it isn't. A great flight planning tool, but that's it. Your Lancair may be equiped with deice, have a NEXRAD service, stormscope, etc, but that doesn't mean you can fly into a thunderstrom. If these things are giving you the "I can fly anywhere in any weather" attitude, then please do us all a favor and take all that stuff off because if you don't, you are about to die. Ron Galbraith HPAT instructor Charlie has great advice here. We could probably cut the IVP accident rate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering Cu. You are NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So your options are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that develop in the summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts. You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot visually see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to these things. Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time lag of up to 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depicted or more. As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement, which is very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these things or plan a very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side. Descisions to go between cells in a line should not be taken lightly. Can you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the other side? How wide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closing? How can you tell? What are the tops of the cu in the break? What is on the other side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What is you escape route if you poke your nose in it and it closes up? I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and suspenders). There are differences between the two nexrad images that are important. One may be painting orange while the other is green. I choose the most conservative route of the tow shown. If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Canada or Alaska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside of CONUS. Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this year. I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I landed in St. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes after I landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Brady flew into that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his wreckage was scattered over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he penetrated the storm. Living in St. Louis has made every trip this year one with thunderstorms. I have not topped one yet. Be careful out there! Jeff **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------------------------1216136614 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I sure have to agree with that one, visual only to get threw them, I ha= ve a=20 496 and fly threw thunderstorms here in Florida daily, but it only helps, yo= u=20 have to see a way threw and even then it can sure get rough, not to mention=20= the=20 hail. Fly safe, go around, under or whatever you have to do but not threw=20 blindly.  Ron
 
www.ronsflying.com
 =20
 
In a message dated 7/15/2008 7:51:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 cfi@instructor.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>I'd like=20 to add a little to what Jeff and Charlie is saying.  The ARTCC's use=20 WARP, which is nothing more than a mosaic NEXRAD very much like XM or=20 WSI.  As a matter of fact it's not as good as either of those=20 services.   It only shows 3 levels of precipitation, and is also= not=20 real time weather.  The lag is about 8 minutes, but can be much=20 longer.  If you are relying on the Center controller to vector you ar= ound=20 a thunderstorm, you are potentially getting into more trouble than you wou= ld=20 on your own.  Really guys, you gotta use visual to get around=20 Thunderstorms and give an extra wide margin.  ATC is not required to=20= keep=20 you out of the weather it's up to you to do that.  They are required=20= to=20 advise you as to what they see in front of you by phraseology such as:&nbs= p;=20 "Lancair zero 9 Lima, moderate to heavy precipitation 12 o'clock 15 miles,= =20 extends 20 miles along your rounte".  If you want them to help you, t= hen=20 it is up to you to ask them and they will vector you around what they are=20 seeing if that's what you are requesting.   There is a new syste= m=20 that is in prototype right now that will be much better, and predicts the=20= path=20 of storms that will be available to ATC, but that will be a while before i= t's=20 usable.  I use XM on every flight I take and find it to be very usefu= l,=20 but I don't rely on just that.  It's very easy to use it as a weather= =20 radar type system, but it isn't.  A great flight planning tool, but=20 that's it.  Your Lancair may be equiped with deice, have a NEXRAD=20 service, stormscope, etc, but that doesn't mean you can fly into a=20 thunderstrom.  If these things are giving you the "I can fly anywhere= in=20 any weather" attitude, then please do us all a favor and take all that stu= ff=20 off because if you don't, you are about to die. 

Ron=20 Galbraith
HPAT instructor

 
  

Charlie has great advice here. We could probably cut the=20= IVP=20 accident rate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering= Cu.=20 You are NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So=20= your=20 options are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that deve= lop=20 in the summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts.
 
You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot= =20 visually see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to th= ese=20 things. Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time=20= lag=20 of up to 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depi= cted=20 or more. As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement= ,=20 which is very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these th= ings=20 or plan a very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side.
 
Descisions to go between cells in a line should not be taken=20 lightly. Can you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the ot= her=20 side? How wide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closi= ng?=20 How can you tell? What are the tops of the cu in the break? Wh= at=20 is on the other side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What i= s=20 you escape route if you poke your nose in it and it closes up?
 
I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and=20 suspenders). There are differences between the two nexrad images th= at=20 are important. One may be painting orange while the other is green. I ch= oose=20 the most conservative route of the tow shown.
 
If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Cana= da=20 or Alaska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside= of=20 CONUS. Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this=20 year.
 
I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I la= nded=20 in St. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes=20 after I landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Bra= dy=20 flew into that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his wrec= kage=20 was scattered over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he=20 penetrated the storm.
 
Living in St. Louis  has made every trip this year one with=20 thunderstorms. I have not topped one yet.
 
Be careful out there!
 
Jeff
 =20






Get the scoop on last= night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourT= racker.com!
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