X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 14:22:39 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc2-s5.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.141] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2924953 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 May 2008 11:33:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.141; envelope-from=bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Received: from BAY128-W20 ([65.55.133.55]) by bay0-omc2-s5.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 16 May 2008 08:32:43 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_3b4708dd-1486-4a5e-9831-b7e6788df9bd_" X-Originating-IP: [71.111.143.173] From: Bill Kennedy X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: RE: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after engine failure X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:32:43 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 May 2008 15:32:43.0687 (UTC) FILETIME=[1599B370:01C8B76A] --_3b4708dd-1486-4a5e-9831-b7e6788df9bd_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're right, the turn won't be successful started at 200' AGL. From 500' A= GL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have enough time/= energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing. My priorities are air= speed, continuous monitor; coordination, double check a couple of times; ba= nk angle, comfortable, no burble (approx 60); watch for roll-out/reversal p= oint; check configuration for landing. My guess is that most of the stall-spin events are caused, not by attemptin= g to return to the departure runway, but by not allowing the aircraft to gl= ide. Even "landing straight ahead" is going to result in a stall-spin, if t= he pilot won't let the plane glide. Even timid pilots can practice the tran= sition from high-power climb to low/no power glide without risk. To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400 From: Sky2high@aol.com Subject: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after engine failure =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Bill and Dom,=0A= =0A= Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - just =0A= fill in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts.=0A= =0A= Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the =0A= turn rate is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to do a =0A= 180. If your prop was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is about = =0A= 1500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 10= 5, =0A= depending). In 10 seconds it will have descended 250 feet, 50 feet =0A= below the surface of the planet - Oh, and it will still be 500 feet off the= =0A= runway centerline but the wreckage will be easy to find since it will be so= =0A= close to the airport.=0A= =0A= Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes. Of =0A= course, you do practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coar= se =0A= pitch?=0A= =0A= Grayhawk=0A= =0A= =0A= In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =0A= domcrain@tpg.com.au writes:=0A= =0A= OK Bill =96 You=92re on the take-off =0A= R/W length 1000 metres (3280=92). You=92re at say, 200=92 passing 100 KIA= S Gear is =0A= UP, Flaps retracted =96 engine dead cuts. Where to?=0A= I think your scenario is fine if you have =0A= a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then =96 can you still m= ake the =0A= airfield?=0A= Your scenario is seriously debatable, I =0A= believe.=0A= Cheers mate=0A= Dom=0A= VH-CZJ=0A= -----Original =0A= Message----- From: Lancair =0A= Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 =0A= AM To: =0A= lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles =0A= and training=0A= I practice these simulated engine =0A= failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land on or parallel to th= e =0A= runway than in the whatever off the ends of the runway. There is a big = =0A= difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 degree= bank =0A= turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate is so fast at max perform= ance, =0A= that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on th= e =0A= edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree= bank =0A= produces a very brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still = hold =0A= my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly. To reiterate: 1. Max =0A= performance turns at low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if =0A= you maintain your airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. =0A= The key things are to maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the =0A= middle. Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt =0A= to return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't = =0A= practice often =0A= die. Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at = AOL Food.=0A= --_3b4708dd-1486-4a5e-9831-b7e6788df9bd_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You're right, th= e turn won't be successful started at 200' AGL. From 500' AGL (with fixed p= itch prop and engine running in idle) you have enough time/energy to line u= p on the runway for a normal landing. My priorities are airspeed, continuou= s monitor; coordination, double check a couple of times; bank angle, comfor= table, no burble (approx 60); watch for roll-out/reversal point; check conf= iguration for landing.

My guess is that most of the stall-spin event= s are caused, not by attempting to return to the departure runway, but by n= ot allowing the aircraft to glide. Even "landing straight ahead" is going t= o result in a stall-spin, if the pilot won't let the plane glide. Even timi= d pilots can practice the transition from high-power climb to low/no power = glide without risk.



To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400
= From: Sky2high@aol.com
Subject: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after eng= ine failure

=0A= =0A= = =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= = =0A=
Bill and Dom,
=0A=
 
=0A=
Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - = just =0A= fill in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts.
=0A=
 
=0A=
Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the =0A= turn rate is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to d= o a =0A= 180.  If your prop was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is ab= out =0A= 1500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 10= 5, =0A= depending).  In 10 seconds it will have descended 250 feet, 50 fe= et =0A= below the surface of the planet - Oh, and it will still be 500 feet of= f the =0A= runway centerline but the wreckage will be easy to find since it will be so= =0A= close to the airport.
=0A=
 
=0A=
Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes.  O= f =0A= course, you do practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coar= se =0A= pitch?
=0A=
 
=0A=
Grayhawk
=0A=
 
=0A=
=0A=
In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =0A= domcrain@tpg.com.au writes:
=0A=
=0A=

OK Bill =96 You=92r= e on the take-off  =0A= R/W length 1000 metres (3280=92). You=92re at say, 200=92 passing 100 KIA= S Gear is =0A= UP, Flaps retracted =96 engine dead cuts. Where to?

=0A=

I think your scenar= io is fine if you have =0A= a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then =96 can you still m= ake the =0A= airfield?

=0A=

Your scenario is se= riously debatable, I =0A= believe.

=0A=

Cheers mate<= /font>

=0A=

Dom=0A=

VH-CZJ

=0A=

-----Original =0A= Message-----
From: La= ncair =0A= Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy
Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 =0A= AM
To: =0A= lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles =0A= and training

=0A=

I prac= tice these simulated engine =0A= failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land on or parallel to th= e =0A= runway than in the whatever off the ends of the runway. There is a big = =0A= difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 degree= bank =0A= turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate is so fast at max perform= ance, =0A= that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on th= e =0A= edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree= bank =0A= produces a very brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still = hold =0A= my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max = =0A= performance turns at low altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are ea= sy if =0A= you maintain your airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for re= al. =0A= The key things are to maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the =0A= middle.

Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all at= tempt =0A= to return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't = =0A= practice often =0A= die.




Wonder= ing what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family fav= orites at AOL Food.
=0A=
= --_3b4708dd-1486-4a5e-9831-b7e6788df9bd_--