X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:02:24 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTP id 2146787 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:50:38 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.70; envelope-from=douglasbrunner@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=U2/bcNGSh1k4fDIFlkIIF6TIT5BH9ZSqgCldUSEXrBgxV5fZVNXUh1fuU9QStRsO; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [74.93.196.177] (helo=DFWK3391) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1I45cY-0000sy-UB for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:50:03 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <001401c7b9ef$c731a3f0$19d0a60a@DFWK3391> From: "Douglas Brunner" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] To de-ice, or not to de-ice, and if so, how? X-Original-Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:49:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7B9CE.3FDF9F90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-ELNK-Trace: ad85a799c4f5de37c2eb1477c196d22294f5150ab1c16ac0c864d17e3813b99a94d0cb27f06ad254cf6b44e9d14db160350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 74.93.196.177 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7B9CE.3FDF9F90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I don't consider myself an expert, I have given this topic a fair = amount of thought and am planning to de-ice my Legacy. I certainly don't advocate flying in "known ice", however even if you = avoid flying in "known ice" you can sometimes encounter significant = unknown ice, which is no more fun than the known kind. I live in = Baltimore and have had some scary encounters with ice over Western MD in = April and November as well as a number of other less scary encounters = including one over Ohio in August. When I got my Mooney Ovation, I equipped it with TKS icing. The icing = install was done after I had the airplane for several months so I got to = fly it before and after the installation of the TKS. To make a long = story short, I lost about 6 kts because of the TKS. I think that you = would lose even more than that on a Lancair because of the critical = laminar flow wing. On the other hand, if you put TKS on a fat Piper = wing, or if you mold the leading edge to accept TKS as Diamond has done, = you probably won't lose any significant speed. I didn't find the TKS fluid to be too much of a pain, but others have = complained about this aspect of TKS as well. I have been told that electro expulsive is also thick and would cause a = significant speed loss, but don't have any personal experience. I = presume boots would be the same - again no experience. That leaves me with heated leading edge which is now being worked on by = RDD in Redmond. The URL is: http://www.rddent.com/. This is also the = system that Columbia uses. This is the system that I hope to have = installed on my plane. I know they have installed systems on IVs and = ESs and suggest that you give them a call. Doug Brunner N241DB ?first flight - August? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Hafen=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:21 PM Subject: [LML] To de-ice, or not to de-ice, and if so, how? Gents: This is a philosophical question as well as a technical recommendation = question. A) would you consider a de-ice system for the IV-P? B) if so, which technology would you use? In general, I don't believe in flying small planes anywhere near icing = conditions (been there done that - sinking feeling when you are at full = throttle and unable to maintain level flight - then your prop heat = throws off a chunk of ice that hits the windshield like a brick.. Just = to keep your heart rate and blood pressure way high off the chart.) And, having said the above, after you have done everything possible to = avoid icing conditions, and you still find yourself icing up, it would = be nice to be able to do something about it other than pray, which I = have done ("I promise to mend all my evil ways if you just help me out = of this one."). So, philosophically, would you recommend a de-ice system? If so, would you lean toward: Heated Leading Edge Electro Expulsive Glycol Rubber Boot Other? As always, your thoughts/recommendations are welcome. Thanks in = advance. John Hafen Lancair IV-P N413AJ=20 2/3rds done (I pray) PS - I LIVE IN SEATTLE - THE WEATHER IS ALWAYS SH1TTY, HERE. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7B9CE.3FDF9F90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I don't consider myself an = expert, I have=20 given this topic a fair amount of thought and am planning to de-ice my=20 Legacy.
 
I certainly don't advocate flying in = "known ice",=20 however even if you avoid flying in "known ice" you can sometimes = encounter=20 significant unknown ice, which is no more fun than the known kind.  = I live=20 in Baltimore and have had some scary encounters with ice over Western MD = in=20 April and November as well as a number of other less scary encounters = including=20 one over Ohio in August.
 
When I got my Mooney Ovation, I = equipped it with=20 TKS icing.  The icing install was done after I had the airplane for = several=20 months so I got to fly it before and after the installation of the = TKS.  To=20 make a long story short, I lost about 6 kts because of the TKS.  I = think=20 that you would lose even more than that on a Lancair because of the = critical=20 laminar flow wing.  On the other hand, if you put TKS on a fat = Piper wing,=20 or if you mold the leading edge to accept TKS as Diamond has done, you = probably=20 won't lose any significant speed.
 
I didn't find the TKS fluid to be too = much of a=20 pain, but others have complained about this aspect of TKS as = well.
 
I have been told that electro expulsive = is also=20 thick and would cause a significant speed loss, but don't have any=20 personal experience.  I presume boots would be the same - = again no=20 experience.
 
That leaves me with heated leading edge = which is=20 now being worked on by RDD in Redmond. The URL is: http://www.rddent.com/.  This = is also the=20 system that Columbia uses.  This is the system that I hope to have=20 installed on my plane.  I know they have installed systems on IVs = and ESs=20 and suggest that you give them a call.
 
Doug Brunner
N241DB
?first flight - August?
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John Hafen=20
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 = 7:21=20 PM
Subject: [LML] To de-ice, or = not to=20 de-ice, and if so, how?

Gents:

 

This is a philosophical = question=20 as well as a technical recommendation question.

 

A) would you consider a = de-ice=20 system for the IV-P?

 

B) if so, which = technology would=20 you use?

 

In general, I don=92t = believe in=20 flying small planes anywhere near icing conditions (been there done = that =96=20 sinking feeling when you are at full throttle and unable to maintain = level=20 flight =96 then your prop heat throws off a chunk of ice that hits the = windshield like a brick=85. Just to keep your heart rate and blood = pressure way=20 high off the chart.)

 

And, having said the = above, after=20 you have done everything possible to avoid icing conditions, and you = still=20 find yourself icing up, it would be nice to be able to do something = about it=20 other than pray, which I have done (=93I promise to mend all my evil = ways if you=20 just help me out of this one=85=94).

 

So, philosophically, = would you=20 recommend a de-ice system?

 

If so, would you lean=20 toward:

 

           = =20 Heated Leading Edge

           = =20 Electro Expulsive

           = =20 Glycol

           = =20 Rubber Boot

           = =20 Other?

 

As always, your=20 thoughts/recommendations are welcome.  Thanks in=20 advance.

 

John = Hafen

Lancair IV-P N413AJ=20

2/3rds done (I=20 pray)

 

PS =96 I LIVE IN SEATTLE = =96 THE=20 WEATHER IS ALWAYS SH1TTY, HERE.

 

 

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