X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 13:41:57 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com ([64.12.138.205] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c3) with ESMTP id 747258 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:37:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.138.205; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r5.5.) id q.1ec.44a882b4 (4214) for ; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:37:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <1ec.44a882b4.307409b2@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:37:06 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Non Certified (i.e. not confined institutionally) X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1128443826" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5009 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1128443826 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 10/4/2005 9:29:55 A.M. Central Standard Time, =20 wfhannahan@yahoo.com writes: Imagine that we selected 10,000 high performance cars off the highway at=20 random. Count the number that were built by the driver, my guess is less th= an=20 10. For those who do build their own, the cost may exceed the cost of a mas= s=20 produced car of similar performance. =20 Bill, =20 Having nothing better to do right now, I thought I might spend some time =20 responding. There are high performance cars starting at around $35000. Th= ere=20 are only a few (very few) cars (commercially available for highway use)=20 costing in excess of $100,000. For those in the range of $0 - $100,000 any= half=20 blind, sightly deaf idiot can easily obtain a license (slightly more diffic= ult=20 for those over 70, English need not be spoken) and insurance. There are so= me=20 people that do indeed build and restore cars - go visit your local Hooters=20 on any sunny Saturday. Let's see, I think a Columbia 400 is about $400,000= ?=20 License and insurance are still not eliminating the idiot but English is=20 required, you have to be able to see something and hear the recurrent train= er. =20 What's the point? I have no idea. If modern factory built high performance planes were available at =20 competitive pricing, I believe the ratio of commercial to homebuilts would b= e similar.=20 If I am off by a factor of 10 or even 100 that still leaves a huge untapped= =20 market.=20 =20 Do you mean pricing competitive with autos? If so, there would still be =20 people that like to build and restore cars - I mean airplanes. We call the= se=20 people amateur builders. We sometimes call their airplanes experimental. =20= These=20 people like the tremendous freedom they have until the current rules and=20 would prefer nobody cheat on such rules, causing the rule makers to "tighte= n"=20 them up. In other words, not all the people build airplanes because they c= an't=20 afford those that are "commercially" available. After all, my Webster's=20 defines amateur thusly: ... A person who engages in a(n) ..... activity for= =20 pleasure rather than a financial benefit or professional reasons. We were selling 10,000-15,000 expensive low tech certified GA planes per=20 year in the 70=E2=80=99s. If there was a non-certified category in which ma= nufacturers=20 offered modern high performance personal aircraft at a modest price, the=20 market would be much greater than 15,000 planes per year.=20 I like your big dreams. If we could only get the FAA to accept planes =20 labeled "Made in China." As those new sport pilots move up only a small fraction are going to want t= o=20 build their next airplane. Given todays environment they will have to;=20 Bite the bullet and start building, or=20 Hire a helper wink wink, to build for them, or=20 Buy a used amature built plane of uncertain quality (did he really remove=20 all of the peal ply from that spar web?).=20 I would like to see a vote by EAA members on the idea of a new non-certifie= d=20 category. As Lowell points out, it=E2=80=99s a bit like asking the Amish to= vote on=20 a new interstate highway, but I think most would recognize that homebuilder= s=20 have much to gain. A big increase in GA activity would;=20 I am an EAA member (Eclectic Aircraft Assn.) oh, and the other EAA, too. I= =20 would vote affirmatively, in an instant, for such a new category. Of cours= e,=20 I am one of the minority EAA members (the latter one) that actually built a= n=20 airplane or two. Gee, the EAA (the latter) could start another division -=20 Like Warbirds but maybe something like UFO (Unknowingly From Others). Flie= rs=20 would be known as ETs (Extreme Testers). Help keep airports open and build new ones.=20 Fund new sources for engines, instrument, structural materials etc. that=20 homebuilders could tap into. That's OK, I'm happy to scrounge around for NASA junk. Take the amateur built experimentals out of the spotlight, reducing the ris= k=20 of further restrictions on them. Hmmmm, I wonder how they got into the spot light.......=20 Allow the aging corroding cracking fleet of GA aircraft to move on the =20 recyclers, increasing the supply of used engines and parts for amateur buil= ders. No thanks. That stuff can be used to help with the land fill being built in=20= =20 the South - you know, in the old bowl called New Orleans. Most importantly it would provide more political clout to resist =20 overregulation. The greater the number of people who can avoid big airport =20= hassles and=20 watch the earth slide by under their personal plane from 1,000 feet, the=20 better protected our freedom is. We already got clout, EAA (latter), AOPA, ALPA, ALPO, etc. BTW, that's=20 flying a little low in a land becoming filled with windmill generators, cel= l=20 towers and Trump towers. =20 Grayhawk =20 -------------------------------1128443826 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
In a message dated 10/4/2005 9:29:55 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 wfhannahan@yahoo.com writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#= 000000=20 size=3D3>

Imagine that we selected 10,000 high performance cars off the hig= hway=20 at random. Count the number that were built by the driver, my guess is les= s=20 than 10. For those who do build their own, the cost may exceed the cost of= a=20 mass produced car of similar performance.
 
Bill,
 
Having nothing better to do right now, I thought I might spend some tim= e=20 responding.  There are high performance cars starting at around=20 $35000.  There are only a few (very few) cars (commercially available f= or=20 highway use) costing in excess of $100,000.  For those in the rang= e of=20 $0 - $100,000 any half blind, sightly deaf idiot can easily obtain a license= =20 (slightly more difficult for those over 70, English need not be spoken) and=20 insurance.  There are some people that do indeed build and restore cars= -=20 go visit your local Hooters on any sunny Saturday.  Let's see= , I=20 think a Columbia 400 is about $400,000? License and insurance are still not=20 eliminating the idiot but English is required, you have to be able to see=20 something and hear the recurrent trainer.   What's the point? I ha= ve=20 no idea.

 

If modern factory built high performance planes were available at= =20 competitive pricing, I believe the ratio of commercial to homebuilts would= be=20 similar. If I am off by a factor of 10 or even 100 that still leaves a hug= e=20 untapped market.

 
Do you mean pricing competitive with autos? If so, there would still be= =20 people that like to build and restore cars - I mean airplanes.  We call= =20 these people amateur builders.  We sometimes call their airplanes=20 experimental.  These people like the tremendous freedom they have until= the=20 current rules and would prefer nobody cheat on such rules, causing the rule=20 makers to "tighten" them up.  In other words, not all the people b= uild=20 airplanes because they can't afford those that are "commercially"=20 available.  After all, my Webster's defines amateur thusly: ... A perso= n=20 who engages in a(n) ..... activity for pleasure rather than a financial bene= fit=20 or professional reasons.

 

We were selling 10,000-15,000 expensive low tech certified GA pla= nes=20 per year in the 70=E2=80=99s. If there was a non-certified category in whi= ch=20 manufacturers offered modern high performance personal aircraft at a modes= t=20 price, the market would be much greater than 15,000 planes per=20 year.

 

 
I like your big dreams.  If we could only get the FAA to accept pl= anes=20 labeled "Made in China."
<= /o:p>

As those new sport pilots move up only a small fraction are going= to=20 want to build their next airplane. Given todays environment they wi= ll=20 have to;

 

Bite the bullet and start building, or

 

Hire a helper wink wink, to build for them, or

 

Buy a used amature built plane of uncertain quality (did he reall= y=20 remove all of the peal ply from that spar web?).

 

I would like to see a vote by EAA members on the idea of a new=20 non-certified category. As Lowell=20 points out, it=E2=80=99s a bit like asking the Amish to vote on a new inte= rstate=20 highway, but I think most would recognize that homebuilders have much to g= ain.=20 A big increase in GA activity would;

 

 
I am an EAA member (Eclectic Aircraft Assn.) oh, and the other EAA,=20 too.  I would vote affirmatively, in an instant, for such a new=20 category.  Of course, I am one of the minority EAA members (the la= tter=20 one) that actually built an airplane or two.  Gee, the EAA (the latter)= =20 could start another division - Like Warbirds but maybe something like U= FO=20 (Unknowingly From Others).  Fliers would be known as ETs (Extreme=20 Testers).
<= /o:p>

Help keep airports open and build new ones.

 

Fund new sources for engines, instrument, structural materials et= c.=20 that homebuilders could tap into.

That's OK, I'm happy to scrounge around for NASA junk.
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#= 000000=20 size=3D3>

 

Take the amateur built experimentals out of the spotlight, reduci= ng the=20 risk of further restrictions on them.

Hmmmm, I wonder how they got into the spot light.......
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#= 000000=20 size=3D3>

 

Allow the aging corroding cracking fleet of GA aircraft to move o= n the=20 recyclers, increasing the supply of used engines and parts for amateur=20 builders.

No thanks. That stuff can be used to help with the land fill being buil= t in=20 the South - you know, in the old bowl called New Orleans.
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#= 000000=20 size=3D3>

 

Most importantly it would provide more political clout to resist=20 overregulation. The greater the number of people who can avoid big airport= =20 hassles and watch the earth slide by under their personal plane from 1,000= =20 feet, the better protected our freedom is.

We already got clout, EAA (latter), AOPA, ALPA, ALPO, etc.  BTW,=20 that's flying a little low in a land becoming filled with windmill=20 generators, cell towers and Trump towers.
 
Grayhawk
 
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