X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:28:14 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.69] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c3) with ESMTP id 746015 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:19:25 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.69; envelope-from=skipslater@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=a4l0V0IBGJoq4KqWwKdbI1J61i7kDPy4PRtBzvzN3IWqYmKrVr6JBwC0pLpUqbwl; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [65.135.49.225] (helo=Skip) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EMS5O-0008Dh-6N for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:18:40 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <000301c5c82d$bb4a2810$e1318741@Skip> Reply-To: "Skip Slater" From: "Skip Slater" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Non-Certified Aircraft X-Original-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:15:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5C7F2.8FF68CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-ELNK-Trace: cbee950bdf563876c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c26093616bb234538ee8579a7ef0c5a2aa3212601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.135.49.225 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5C7F2.8FF68CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Duane, As a 22 year airline pilot, I found myself laughing at some of the = assertions in your post about crews sleeping, making excuses for mised = radio calls, computers taking over at 50 feet, etc. Where did you come = up with this stuff? Let me correct some of the ridiculous things you = said: "The main difference in that and commercial aircraft now is that there = are two pilots up front whom one of is supposed to be awake at all times to monitor the computers that fly the = airplane." Actually, ALL pilots on the flight deck are supposed to be awake ALL the = time. Do pilots doze off now and then? Sure; I know I've done it on = all nighters, but only for a few minutes at a time and only after making = sure that my F/O knew he needed to be alert while I was doing it. If my = F/O tells me he needs to close his eyes for a few minutes, I make = certain that I'm alert while he's doing it. What we do is take what are = called NASA Naps, very brief light sleeps which greatly increase our = alertness afterwards. On international flights, there are one or two = relief pilots so one pilot or the backup crew can rest, either in a = reserved first class seat or in a bunk so that the crew in the cockpit = is as rested as possible. I can honestly say that in my entire career, = I've only experienced one instance when both pilots fell asleep and that = was on a day we'd had extensive weather delays and then were reassigned = to fly an extra leg that arrived at its destination seven hours after = our original scheduled off duty time. At that point, we'd both been on = duty for over fourteen hours and the time we were both asleep over the = middle of Utah was only a matter of a few minutes. "I'm sure you've read the stories of center not being able to reach an = aircraft for long periods of time. This often happens when all flight = deck crew fall asleep at the same time. Of course, they claim radio = failure." That statement is a total CROCK! I lose contact with center many times = a year, but never because the crew was asleep. It usually happens when = we fly out of range of a ground station and miss center's call with a = frequency change. I'll tell you what's much more common for me, and = that's when I have to call center two or three times to check in on a = new frequency. Does that mean that the controllers are asleep on the = ground? I don't think so! "I've entered the flight deck and found the pilot asleep, the first = fficer reading a magazine (while dozing) and the flight engineer asleep. = Did it bother me? Not really. Once the computer takes over, usually = passing 50ft. agl, it is all automatic thereafter. Once on final, one = of them pushes the pilot disconnect button and lands the airplane." First, how does one read a magazine while dozing? I do some reading of = aviation magazines, company bulletins or do Jeppesen revisions in cruise = at times, but I'm normally awake when I do it. As for computers taking over at 50 feet, I assume you're talking about = the autopilot. Most pilots I know don't use it until passing 18,000 = feet. I personally hand fly until near level off at cruise altitude. = In the plane I fly, (737-800) we aren't allowed to turn on the A/P until = 1,000' on takeoff, but it's rarely done that low. With SIDs on the way = out of and STARS on the way into major airports, often with vectors, = direct routings for shortcuts and variations from published speeds, the = FMS and A/P cannot fly everything automatically, but need to routinely = have new inputs given to them by the pilot flying the airplane. You = seem to imply that we hand fly the planes as little as possible, which = is silly. We're pilots after all - where's the fun in that? It's very clear from your post Duane, that you are not an airline pilot. = With that in mind, I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your opinions of how = we operate to yourself. Skip Slater ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5C7F2.8FF68CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Duane,
   As a 22 year airline pilot, I found myself = laughing at=20 some of the assertions in your post about crews sleeping, making excuses = for=20 mised radio calls, computers taking over at 50 feet, etc.   = Where did=20 you come up with this stuff?   Let me correct some of the = ridiculous=20 things you said:
 
"The main difference in that and = commercial=20 aircraft now is that there are two pilots up front whom one of = is
supposed to=20 be awake at all times to monitor the computers that fly the=20 airplane."
 
Actually, ALL pilots on the flight deck are supposed to be awake = ALL the=20 time.  Do pilots doze off now and then?  Sure; I know I've = done it on=20 all nighters, but only for a few minutes at a time and only after making = sure=20 that my F/O knew he needed to be alert while I was doing it.  If my = F/O=20 tells me he needs to close his eyes for a few minutes, I make certain = that I'm=20 alert while he's doing it.  What we do is take what are called NASA = Naps,=20 very brief light sleeps which greatly increase our alertness=20 afterwards.  On international flights, there are one or two = relief=20 pilots so one pilot or the backup crew can rest, either in a reserved = first=20 class seat or in a bunk so that the crew in the cockpit is as rested as=20 possible.  I can honestly say that in my entire career, I've=20 only experienced one instance when both pilots fell asleep and that = was on=20 a day we'd had extensive weather delays and then were reassigned to fly = an extra=20 leg that arrived at its destination seven hours after our original = scheduled off=20 duty time.  At that point, we'd both been on duty for over fourteen = hours=20 and the time we were both asleep over the middle of Utah was only a = matter of a=20 few minutes.
 
"I'm sure you've read the stories of = center not=20 being able to reach an aircraft for long periods of time.  This=20 often happens when all flight deck crew fall asleep at the same = time. =20 Of course, they claim radio failure."
 
That statement=20 is a total CROCK!  I lose contact with center many times a year, = but=20 never because the crew was asleep. It usually happens when = we fly=20 out of range of a ground station and miss center's call with a frequency = change.  I'll tell you what's much more common for me, and that's = when I=20 have to call center two or three times to check in on a new = frequency. =20 Does that mean that the controllers are asleep on the ground?  I = don't=20 think so!
 
"I've entered the flight deck and = found the=20 pilot asleep, the first fficer reading a magazine (while dozing) and the = flight=20 engineer asleep.  Did it bother me?  Not really.  Once = the=20 computer takes over, usually passing 50ft. agl, it is all automatic=20 thereafter.  Once on final, one of them pushes the pilot disconnect = button=20 and lands the
airplane."
 
First, how does one read a magazine while dozing?  I do some = reading=20 of aviation magazines, company bulletins or do Jeppesen = revisions in=20 cruise at times, but I'm normally awake when I do it.
 
As for computers taking over at 50 feet, I assume you're talking = about the=20 autopilot.  Most pilots I know don't use it until passing 18,000=20 feet.  I personally hand fly until near level off at cruise = altitude. =20 In the plane I fly, (737-800) we aren't allowed to turn on the A/P until = 1,000'=20 on takeoff, but it's rarely done that low.  With SIDs on the way = out=20 of and STARS on the way into major airports, often with vectors, = direct=20 routings for shortcuts and variations from published speeds, the FMS and = A/P=20 cannot fly everything automatically, but need to routinely have new = inputs given=20 to them by the pilot flying the airplane.  You seem to imply that = we hand=20 fly the planes as little as possible, which is silly.  We're pilots = after=20 all - where's the fun in that?
 
It's very clear from your post Duane, that you are not an = airline=20 pilot.  With that in mind, I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your = opinions of=20 how we operate to yourself.
 
Skip Slater
 

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