Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:40:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mxsf23.cluster1.charter.net ([209.225.28.223] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b8) with ESMTP id 332944 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:01:36 -0400 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.225.28.223; envelope-from=troneill@charter.net Received: from mxip05.cluster1.charter.net (mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.135]) by mxsf23.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6OH1gGZ009594 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:01:42 -0400 Received: from sc3-24.217.131.57.charter-stl.com (HELO axs) (24.217.131.57) by mxip05.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2004 13:01:06 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="139149677:sNHT21017320" X-Original-Message-ID: <002401c32867$861261c0$6401a8c0@axs> From: "terrence o'neill" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Epic aircraft X-Original-Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:59:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C32835.3B289940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C32835.3B289940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Edde, Check out www.aircraftersllc.com/51percent.htm Per AC 20-139A, FAA Pub 8130.2(D) and FAR 21.191(g), for qualifying to = Register and becoming a Repairman: The link says: The fabrication and assembly operation listed in FAA Form 8000-38 are = the ONLY things FAA inspectors are concerned with when determining the = status of your amateur-built experimental aircraft. If you have been = 'involved in performing' ANY of these operations, you earned gained = credit for having performed that operation and toward establishing = amateur-built status for your plane. =20 There are 119 fabrication and assembly operations for a standard fixed = wing aircraft, and you'd need to be 'involved in' 60 of them. That = qualifies you as a Repairman for that plane, and for to register it. = Hours or effort has nothing to do with it, says FAA. If your kit is already Registered, the next step is 'Certification', = i.e. Airworthiness. See FAA Advisory Circular 20-27F (dtd 9/26/03 ... = so far) The FAA is adding a lot of 'clarification' to their rules pertaining to = kits, and for some reason these are more demanding for kits than those = for Certifying a plans-built. One would think the opposite should be = true. Further, they seem to be applying requirements published in just = the last three or four years to as-yet-incomplete-kits which may be = twenty years old or so ... confusing ' grandfather'... and lateralling = it over to FAA DAR inspectors, who the builder pays, thereby creating a = conflict of interest. So, everybody's trying to make it work, and we = just have to do the best we can, especially when buying and completing = an older partially built kit. Additional or contrary comments are invited. T. EAA 5572, tech Counslr/Flt. Advsr. ...working to certify L235 kit 11 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: edechazal@comcast.net=20 To: Lancair Mailing List=20 Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: [LML] Epic aircraft I wonder if some of you got the announcement from Epic aircraft that = they flew their first prototype recently. The CEO is Rick Schrameck (my = memory says - he's one of us, right?) Anyway, the price of the plane is = $1.1 million but it will initially be certified in the "amateur built = category". I thought the rules were simply: You build 51% of the plane = and you get to fly in the 'experimental class'. And you can sell the = plane too. If you don't build the plane, you buy a 'certified' model. =20 If Rick is building planes for sale, he's the same as Piper and = Cessna, and should be playing by the same rules. Similarly for the = 'builder assist' guys out there: If you're building the IVs for other = owners who have not put anywhere near 51% of the effort (who's kidding = who here) then there's going to be trouble at some point. =20 Maybe Epic's got it all worked out. But this is no joke. There are = an awful lot of IVs going down and it's only a matter of time before = someone takes out a school bus loaded with kids. The paperwork better = be squeaky clean, or, not only will there be hell to pay, but our = category could be at risk. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that some guys (that are = circumventing what I understand to be the spirit of the amateur built = class, and probably not even on this list) are putting our existence at = risk. =20 I look forward to having my mind put at ease... Ed de Chazal Lowly 360 driver (and builder) ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C32835.3B289940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Edde,
    Check out www.aircraftersllc.c= om/51percent.htm
Per AC 20-139A, FAA Pub 8130.2(D) and = FAR=20 21.191(g), for qualifying to Register and becoming a Repairman:  = The link=20 says:
The fabrication and assembly operation = listed in=20 FAA Form 8000-38 are the ONLY things FAA inspectors are concerned with = when=20 determining the status of your amateur-built experimental = aircraft.  If you=20 have been 'involved in performing' ANY of these operations, you earned = gained=20 credit for having performed that operation and toward establishing = amateur-built=20 status for your plane. 
 
There are 119 fabrication and assembly = operations=20 for a standard fixed wing aircraft, and you'd need to be 'involved = in'  60=20 of them.  That qualifies you as a Repairman for that plane, and for = to=20 register it. Hours or effort has nothing to do with it, says=20 FAA.
 
    If your kit = is already=20 Registered, the next step is 'Certification', i.e. Airworthiness.  = See FAA=20 Advisory Circular 20-27F (dtd 9/26/03 ... so far)
The FAA is adding a lot of = 'clarification' to their=20 rules pertaining to kits, and for some reason these are more = demanding for=20 kits than those for Certifying a plans-built.  One would think the = opposite=20 should be true.  Further, they seem to be applying requirements = published=20 in just the last three or four years to as-yet-incomplete-kits which may = be=20 twenty years old or so ... confusing ' grandfather'... and = lateralling it=20 over to FAA DAR inspectors, who the builder pays, thereby = creating a=20 conflict of interest.  So, everybody's trying to make it work, = and we=20 just have to do the best we can, especially when buying and completing = an=20 older partially built kit.
 
Additional or contrary comments are=20 invited.
T.
EAA 5572, tech Counslr/Flt. = Advsr.
...working to certify  L235 kit=20 11
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 edechazal@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 = 10:44=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Epic = aircraft

I wonder if some of = you got the=20 announcement from Epic aircraft that they flew their first prototype=20 recently.  The CEO is Rick Schrameck (my memory says - he's one = of us,=20 right?) Anyway, the price of the plane is $1.1 million but it will = initially=20 be certified in the "amateur built category".  I thought the = rules were=20 simply:  You build 51% of the plane and you get to fly in the=20 'experimental class'.  And you can sell the plane too.  If = you don't=20 build the plane, you buy a 'certified' model.  
 
If Rick is building = planes for=20 sale, he's the same as Piper and Cessna, and should be playing=20 by the same rules.  Similarly for the 'builder assist' = guys out=20 there:  If you're building the IVs for other owners who have = not put=20 anywhere near 51% of the effort (who's kidding who here) then there's = going to=20 be trouble at some point. 
 
Maybe Epic's got it = all worked=20 out.  But this is no joke.  There are an awful lot of IVs = going down=20 and it's only a matter of time before someone takes out a school bus = loaded=20 with kids.  The paperwork better be squeaky clean, or, not only = will=20 there be hell to pay, but our category could be at risk.
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but = I'm thinking=20 that some guys (that are circumventing what I understand to be the = spirit of=20 the amateur built class, and probably not even on this list) are = putting our=20 existence at risk. 
 
I look forward to = having my mind=20 put at ease...
 
Ed de = Chazal
Lowly 360 driver (and = builder)
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