Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net> (Marvin Kaye)
To: lml
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:21:37 -0400
Message-ID: <redirect-1641677@logan.com>
From: "Tony Vaz" <tonyvaz@cableone.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: water landings
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What, pray tell, will ignite the floating gasoline? By the time it reaches
the likely ignition point, the engine, it (the engine) will probably be
submerged and will have cooled off to below the autoignition point of
aviation gasoline (if it was ever that hot in the first place) The MSDS from
my former employer, Chevron, says 824 degrees F...pretty hot for an aircraft
engine that uses 100/100 LL, I would think.
(reference: http://www.chevron.com/PRODSERV/AVIATION/AVGAS02647.SHTM). Any
petroleum product that you would find in an airplane would require an open
flame or spark to ignite it when it is at or above its flash point. At its
autoignition point, it requires oxygen (not pure, but the kind mixed with
Nitrogen commonly called "air") and a hot surface (to get it to its
autoignition point). Pure oxygen and petroleum products take on different
properties that I am only vaguely familiar with. That's probably only a
concern for IV-P drivers and the rest of the high fliers who can get above
15M, not to mention welders and hospital workers.

I suppose that there might be some arcing of failed electrical equipment,
but that will subside as soon as the water gets there or the battery dies
from shorting out. I know we have all seen movies of WWII airplanes crashing
into the Pacific with fiery explosions, but weren't most of them already on
fire when they hit? I suppose their ordnance may have also had something to
do with a source of ignition, as well. Land crashes do not remove any of the
legs of the fire triangle like water crashes tend to do (oxygen and heat).
If you have a Very pistol or signal flares on board, it would be inadvisable
to use them right away, although the unexpected result might aid in the SAR
activities. You might not be around to greet the guys in the orange
helicopters, however.

I'm assuming all this talk about water landings pertains to a
controlled/semi-controlled, forced landing of a Lancair product and not a
plummet that would break everything up. In the latter case, you are dead,
fire or not. May the God (of your choice) help you if you are in an ES or a
Columbia or make a wheels down landing in one of the others.

Just wondering.

Tony Vaz
Ex-Navy man (SeaBee) with crash crew and fire fighting experience (no
sinking ships, however)
Ex-refinery operator/shift supervisor with fire fighting and fire team
leadership experience
Low-time ASEL/ASES pilot with no crashing experience

Part-time grunt/gofer on Legacy #147

"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward; For there you have been, and there you long to return."

 - Leonardo da Vinci


-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin Kaye [mailto:marv@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 7:03 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: water landings


Posted for "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>:
I think that there is a definite FIRE danger. Gasoline floats and can be
ignited and you can have a fire especially if the tanks break up. Talk to
any Navy man about fires and sinking ships. Granted that water will cool but
will not stop the ignition of petroleum products that float and burn on the
surface of water.

Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org

----- Original Message -----
Wrom: FMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDR
Obviously, we pay a bit more attention to this subject in Hawaii than
others might. Personally, I would rather make a forced landing on water
than in tough terrain. A big advantage is there is no fire danger. The