X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from pmg.Logan.com ([207.170.160.161] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.4.0) with ESMTPS id 3784930 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 16:16:56 -0500 Received: from pmg.Logan.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 5C86D339FB for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 16:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'ceengland7@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=pmg.Logan.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="ceengland7@gmail.com"; helo=mail-ed1-f50.google.com; client-ip=209.85.208.50 Received: from mail-ed1-f50.google.com (mail-ed1-f50.google.com [209.85.208.50]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTPS for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 16:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ed1-f50.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d3e9a88793so5120680a12.1 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 13:16:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1736630208; x=1737235008; darn=lancaironline.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=U5OYfbV8ruc0R89qVLiRCBxd9jg5+l+Q9deWEU9DTDw=; b=KSYw6J+guz7iVqDk1dcRFAbdOd5Deymu0rY+6x5+ek0fff4fXHSgv09+iErWf1UM3M ySb9y2gxUUv32PmWkenkR39tozryOPFLPPQVl1fLeEJhzBVyUsagrahbB5JimX2QZa/l 1H+Zvbe64beK9Aakb/iN7nRJGcBwOMDOi3LfuXert3IAzm9NPQvz6vWUZ4gYlA6ro+hr s5q0SCXsMoXd6fJ3faKlk0EynkibcAMV6WJkiCZAMDoARMbk+AvHVW747LfWNp5KwxEF /zNCGnfci6CYhxIraACnLVbml13kC5OvonAs9tMick1NAxyFNdZxb3nginx+rvKYN0yE RVFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1736630208; x=1737235008; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=U5OYfbV8ruc0R89qVLiRCBxd9jg5+l+Q9deWEU9DTDw=; b=L9QAz1Ir2KdVPrHOdHC3cLTgZuZXYf1uO+hgpzC0yMESWPSSBGZzd2EF40jGF+IC56 SIHLw4cb4+pYMB92229IJZKekDDzyQ0AJ9y+l9R0uprSOJuU2qvtzDOR8fdofGQJn42B miAfCSZZzZNls48LDdv5Nkbqijm1ppwJoSI5cIVZPf7RCBJIseR8eLMwg2QzoPJ/r//y tgDgsRmmzhIRZCFniMYaK48Gf/Vho8MIt608zBaloTNOKOB9B9pPewpxcHujtVG5FHTF W4IAPNWW4KCulKtdf2sETwcGhYPkJ2mKvxUT0tnWSxcy3BWFCQ6AqYT4Cw9IDeTlXrnY dodw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YygHI65mQddtnuEwMXYptE8ulIhmgskds1x7YXxzhtUwJVFZjMB Zk608D6XIPqqGcaZLHVedes3H9fcrIR2r3AoUoYo6TLZ/ulmFGOK7lm44E/lTEzETnjCfD3ddTm kMDlogSOcwl5PsseftQWDYa0kWjQGYw== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncu1MDAgJH+dpJl+JJFofyCSLKd7bHbqmhQQKbhTyY5/SG+xAPo6gkYDV0XgLA/ NKeACnD+6CY86F9o+JqLa7kJorxCUnmJfELjV X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF30vr1DUIgoqYhTb/xW4BxlO8u6zF5TVast2psCkxhjC3NnPau9wF/+3940NgeM2ykDO/78YWC0OyBPdEUw84= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:50d0:b0:5d3:d917:dd90 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d972dfb3d9mr15018284a12.6.1736630207642; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 13:16:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 15:16:36 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AbW1kvaRhNH415xlPKYa-dQS4Zz6QNL7XaE2rM7V1iAiNgtXCM-jCnLajfGD_m0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flexplate cracks To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a203fd062b74ba7d" X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.744 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% CBJ_GiveMeABreak 1.75 Messages with consecutive break characters DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain DMARC_PASS -0.1 DMARC pass policy FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT 0.25 Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit FREEMAIL_FROM 0.001 Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider HTML_MESSAGE 0.001 HTML included in message KAM_MXURI 1.5 URI begins with a mail exchange prefix, i.e. mx.[...] RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 -0.001 Average reputation (+2) SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record T_REMOTE_IMAGE 0.01 Message contains an external image WEIRD_PORT 0.001 Uses non-standard port number for HTTP --000000000000a203fd062b74ba7d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exploded view from Mazda 1995 RX7 manual Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:12=E2=80=AFPM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.co= m < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > What does the torque converter bolt to? I thought they bolted to the hole= s > Tracy uses for the 'damper' puck bolts. > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_4433879464839740642_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 1:45=E2=80=AFPM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com= < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> The counterweight is connected to the eshaft with a key. Then the flex >> plate bolts directly to the counterweight >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 8:36 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi there Dave >>> >>> I understood the torque converter was driven from the flex plate. >>> Can someone confirm how power is transferred from the Eccentric to the >>> torque converter? >>> >>> Steve Izett >>> >>> On 11 Jan 2025, at 9:35=E2=80=AFam, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> in the car, the flex plates are only used to carry the torque from the >>> starter and are not designed to transmit the output of the engine. in o= ur >>> setups. We have adapted this flex plate to transmit the entire output o= f >>> the engine which it apparently is not up to. >>> >>> I had my rd1-b seize up a bearing during a race at Reno which may have >>> been due to gyroscopic forces, but I think the flex plate issue just ne= eds >>> to be fixed by replacing all the flex plates with proper flywheels. >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Le Roux Breytenbach >>> breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> What i can rember was this also a topic on the late Paul L group >>>> discussion. >>>> Maybe Dave Leonard can chime in - think more that it was gyroscopic >>>> forces that craked the plates >>>> Maybe i can find the photos and topic in my old mails >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> Le Roux Breytenbach >>>> >>>> On 10 Jan 2025, at 08:13, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> Maybe some of the cracking flexplates are resulting from starting >>>> issues, the starter motor can hammer the ring gear if not meshing corr= ectly >>>> or if engine misfires on start. may explain why so many flexplates com= e >>>> pre-cracked from the wreckers. >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 at 11:32, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi M >>>>> >>>>> I was wondering the same thing. >>>>> >>>>> What I discovered first of all was that flex plates are designed to >>>>> flex (funny that) and cracking is not limited to our setup. >>>>> There are companies that specialise in stronger flex plates, >>>>> particularly for modified and higher horsepower engines. >>>>> >>>>> Since our engines are being used at a higher horsepower per unit time >>>>> and therefore higher stress (assumption) perhaps our setup could be l= ikened >>>>> to race applications. >>>>> But then our hours of use would be significantly lower (assumption) >>>>> than an average vehicle, but perhaps not a race application. >>>>> Is the cracking we are seeing consistent with race applications? But >>>>> they dont race automatics, do they? >>>>> >>>>> So my take on this is that perhaps the flexing of the plate in our >>>>> setup is to some extent higher than OEM. >>>>> >>>>> Our options seem to be: >>>>> 1. Replacing the OEM flex plate with a stronger part. Steve B being >>>>> the latest going down that track and in his case also removing the ru= bber >>>>> isolation in the process. >>>>> 2. Connect direct to the eccentric shaft and therefore taking the >>>>> stress off the Flex Plate doing away with the damping mechanism which= Tracy >>>>> did, and perhaps is still doing. Would be real nice to know. >>>>> >>>>> Like M, I would appreciate hearing what others know or are thinking o= r >>>>> doing. >>>>> >>>>> Steve Izett >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On 10 Jan 2025, at 2:15=E2=80=AFam, Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net= < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Has the cause of these cracks been uncovered, and if so, what is th= e >>>>> current thinking on it? An AL racing plate? >>>>> > M >>>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Jan 9, 2025, at 1:31=E2=80=AFAM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.ed= u < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> =EF=BB=BFSteve, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I didn=E2=80=99t see the cracks prior to disassembly and doubt tha= t they >>>>> could have been seen on the counterweight side very well -if at all- = when >>>>> assembled. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I replaced the Flexplate with a steel flywheel about a year ago. >>>>> Since then, I replaced the four rubber dampers with machined aluminum= discs >>>>> giving a solid connection and then dynamically balanced the system. = This >>>>> was done because maintaining a dynamic balance wasn=E2=80=99t possibl= e with the >>>>> dampers. Only a few hours of flight have occurred in this configurat= ion so >>>>> far and there has been no indication of problems resulting from this = change. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Steve Boese >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> On Jan 8, 2025, at 11:03=E2=80=AFPM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@= gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> =EF=BB=BF=E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address.= Please exercise >>>>> caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sour= ces. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Hi Steve >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is this recent then? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I=E2=80=99m not able to get to my aircraft at present to check my= flex >>>>> plate which has probably seen 50 hours of service. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Was it possible to see these cracks assembled? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I would appreciate your reflections on Tracys latter choice to >>>>> remove the damper, and particularly when using a timber/glass prop su= ch as >>>>> an MT. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> It would be great to have an update and current info from Tracy >>>>> regarding his no damper hours if anyone can contact him. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Very helpful, thanks again Steve >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Steve >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> >> Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> > Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>> >>> --000000000000a203fd062b74ba7d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

3D""Viru= s-free.www.avast.com
<= a href=3D"#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"><= /a>

On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:12=E2=80=AFPM Charlie En= gland ceengland7@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
What= does the torque converter=C2=A0bolt to? I thought they bolted to the holes= Tracy uses for the 'damper' puck bolts.

<= td style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px= ;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.www.avast.com
On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 1:45=E2=80=AFPM David Le= onard wdleonard@gm= ail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The counterweight is con= nected to the eshaft with a key. Then the flex plate bolts directly to the = counterweight

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 8:36 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <= flyrotary@= lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi there Dave

I understood the tor= que converter was driven from the flex plate.=C2=A0
Can someone c= onfirm how power is transferred from the Eccentric to the torque converter?=

Steve Izett
On 11 Jan 2025, at 9:35=E2=80=AFam, David L= eonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

in the car, the flex plates ar= e only used to carry the torque from the starter and are not designed to tr= ansmit the output of the engine. in our setups. We have adapted this flex p= late to transmit the entire output of the engine which it apparently is not= up to.=C2=A0

I had my rd1-b s= eize up a bearing during a race at Reno which may have been due to gyroscop= ic forces, but I think the flex plate issue just needs to be fixed by repla= cing all the flex plates with proper flywheels.=C2=A0

Dave Leonard=C2=A0

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025= , 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com<= /a> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
What i can re= mber was this also a topic on the late Paul L group discussion.
Maybe D= ave Leonard can chime in - think more that it was gyroscopic forces that cr= aked the plates
Maybe i can find the photos and topic in my old m= ails

Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux Breytenbach=C2=A0

On 10 Jan 2025, at 08:13, Andrew= Martin andrew@martinag.com.au <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Maybe so= me of the cracking flexplates are resulting from starting issues, the start= er motor can hammer the ring gear if not meshing correctly or if engine mis= fires on start. may explain why so many flexplates come pre-cracked from th= e wreckers.

Andrew





On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 at 11:32, Stephen Izett= stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi M

I was wondering the same thing.

What I discovered first of all was that flex plates are designed to flex (f= unny that) and cracking is not limited to our setup.
There are companies that specialise in stronger flex plates, particularly f= or modified and higher horsepower engines.

Since our engines are being used at a higher horsepower per unit time and t= herefore higher stress (assumption) perhaps our setup could be likened to r= ace applications.
But then our hours of use would be significantly lower (assumption) than an= average vehicle, but perhaps not a race application.
Is the cracking we are seeing consistent with race applications? But they d= ont race automatics, do they?

So my take on this is that perhaps the flexing of the plate in our setup is= to some extent higher than OEM.

Our options seem to be:
1. Replacing the OEM flex plate with a stronger part. Steve B being the lat= est going down that track and in his case also removing the rubber isolatio= n in the process.
2. Connect direct to the eccentric shaft and therefore taking the stress of= f the Flex Plate doing away with the damping mechanism which Tracy did, and= perhaps is still doing. Would be real nice to know.

Like M, I would appreciate hearing what others know or are thinking or doin= g.

Steve Izett












> On 10 Jan 2025, at 2:15=E2=80=AFam, Marc Wiese cardmarc@c= harter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
>
> Has the cause of these cracks been uncovered, and if so, what is the c= urrent thinking on it? An AL racing plate?
> M
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 9, 2025, at 1:31=E2=80=AFAM, Steven W. Boese SBoese= @uwyo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> w= rote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFSteve,
>>
>> I didn=E2=80=99t see the cracks prior to disassembly and doubt tha= t they could have been seen on the counterweight side very well -if at all-= when assembled.
>>
>> I replaced the Flexplate with a steel flywheel about a year ago.= =C2=A0 Since then, I replaced the four rubber dampers with machined aluminu= m discs giving a solid connection and then dynamically balanced the system.= =C2=A0 This was done because maintaining a dynamic balance wasn=E2=80=99t p= ossible with the dampers.=C2=A0 Only a few hours of flight have occurred in= this configuration so far and there has been no indication of problems res= ulting from this change.
>>
>> Steve Boese
>>
>>> On Jan 8, 2025, at 11:03=E2=80=AFPM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB=BF=E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO addre= ss. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from= external sources.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Steve
>>>
>>> Is this recent then?
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99m not able to get to my aircraft at present to check= my flex plate which has probably seen 50 hours of service.
>>>
>>> Was it possible to see these cracks assembled?
>>>
>>> I would appreciate your reflections on Tracys latter choice to= remove the damper, and particularly when using a timber/glass prop such as= an MT.
>>>
>>> It would be great to have an update and current info from Trac= y regarding his no damper hours if anyone can contact him.
>>>
>>> Very helpful, thanks again Steve
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>> --
>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml
>
>
>
> --
> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= /a>



--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br>

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