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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID fd1df06bb99fd5dc07fca2200e72832c; Wed, 01 Jan 2025 02:28:12 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------w0N4r7h4KrKJVe3CrU60T0UV" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 21:27:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: N214FL forced landing To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.23040 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.352 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain DMARC_PASS -0.1 DMARC pass policy HTML_MESSAGE 0.001 HTML included in message JMQ_SPF_NEUTRAL 0.5 SPF set to ?all KAM_LINEPADDING 1.2 Spam that tries to get past blank line filters RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 -0.001 Average reputation (+2) SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record URIBL_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [vansairforce.net] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------w0N4r7h4KrKJVe3CrU60T0UV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Looks like you have a well thought out system. Only question is will battery present low enough resistance to blow the fuse in the B+ lead in case of over voltage, thus preventing damaging voltage to reach EC, injectors and spark igniters? I think best option is having external voltage regulator that can be crowbarred with an OVP module and a big diode in series with the B+ lead in case of alternator short. Finn On 12/31/2024 7:56 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: > Sorry to hear of your mishap Finn, glad your Ok. > > Much appreciate your reflection and to revaluate my own risk > > I agonised over the electrical risk / failure modes. Opting to ‘kiss' > and not seek full redundancy. > Your experience brings a sober reconsideration of my assumptions and > decisions which I’m trying to recollect and would value others critique. > > My system: > # Single automotive Alternator - Fused B-lead - NO Over-voltage > Crowbar circuit > # Twin 25Ah batteries connected via dual battery isolator switch Off / > A / B / BOTH. > # Engine Power through Primary SPST switch with backup SPST upstream > of current shunt > # Primary and Backup Fuel Pumps with automatic backup activation on > low fuel pressure > # Engine Fuel pumps fed from Header/ReserveTank. Header fed via single > wing tank via Primary and Backup transfer pumps > # EC2 redundant ECU's > # Armoured CAS wiring > # ‘Audible' EFIS Alarms for Volts, Amps, Fuel Pressure, Transfer Fuel > Flow, Fuel Level, Gear etc. > > Pre Flight Testing > Before Engine Start > # Measure individual battery volts while 2 x main 25Ah batteries > disconnected (Isolator switch in Off position) via EFIS on its own > battery backup  delta V < 0.3v if OK then switch isolator to Both > After Engine Start > # Check Alternator Charging Both A, B and back to Both batteries. > # Test Both Primary and Backup Engine Power Switches > # Test Engine Fuel Pumps - Switch Off Main Pump to test auto > activation of backup, reset/arm > # Test Fuel Transfer Pumps - Switch Off Main Transfer Pump to test > auto activation of backup, reset/arm > # Test ECU B and Coils > After Engine shut down > # Turn battery Isolator Switch to Off position and note Battery delta > V before turning Off EFIS > > My Key Failure mode consideration / assumptions > Alternator - > Short Circuit (Low risk but catastrophic) must be protected against > via fuse > Over Voltage (Low risk) - EFIS Alarm - On reflection perhaps I ought > include a Crow Bar but it does introduce complexity/danger > Batteries - > Open Circuit (Significant risk) - Solution - two batteries tied > together reducing chances of failure and protects should failure occur > Shorted Cell (Low risk) - Outcome ???? Battery fire - Halon extinguisher > Testing before and after flight picks up failure and lowers risk > Keep Batteries away fro heat and vibration > Second battery provides more air time in case of Alternator failure > though introduces significant weight > Crank Angle Sensor - > Failure is catastrophic so armour and attention added > Power Switching - > Failure (High risk) therefore backup required > No Relays as they introduce complexity > > Key Questions > Crow Bar on Alternator? > Should I have gone with AeroElectriic circuit with Backup Buss etc. ? > > > Appreciate peoples thoughts. > > Steve Izett - Perth Western Australia > Glasair Super II RG > Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1C Prop MTV 7 Elec > > > > > > > > > > Steve Izett. > > > >> On 1 Jan 2025, at 3:55 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >> wrote: >> >> Not sure if I should re-post the following and its two referenced >> threads here. >> >> https://vansairforce.net/threads/n214fl-forced-landing.232017/ >> >> >> The battery failure mode must definitely be made well-known for >> electrical-dependent engine installations. >> >> Finn >> > --------------w0N4r7h4KrKJVe3CrU60T0UV Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Looks like you have a well thought out system.
Only question is will battery present low enough resistance to blow the fuse in the B+ lead in case of over voltage, thus preventing damaging voltage to reach EC, injectors and spark igniters?

I think best option is having external voltage regulator that can be crowbarred with an OVP module and a big diode in series with the B+ lead in case of alternator short.

Finn

On 12/31/2024 7:56 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry to hear of your mishap Finn, glad your Ok.

Much appreciate your reflection and to revaluate my own risk

I agonised over the electrical risk / failure modes. Opting to ‘kiss' and not seek full redundancy.
Your experience brings a sober reconsideration of my assumptions and decisions which I’m trying to recollect and would value others critique.

My system:
# Single automotive Alternator - Fused B-lead - NO Over-voltage Crowbar circuit
# Twin 25Ah batteries connected via dual battery isolator switch Off / A / B / BOTH.
# Engine Power through Primary SPST switch with backup SPST upstream of current shunt
# Primary and Backup Fuel Pumps with automatic backup activation on low fuel pressure
# Engine Fuel pumps fed from Header/ReserveTank. Header fed via single wing tank via Primary and Backup transfer pumps
# EC2 redundant ECU's
# Armoured CAS wiring
# ‘Audible' EFIS Alarms for Volts, Amps, Fuel Pressure, Transfer Fuel Flow, Fuel Level, Gear etc.

Pre Flight Testing
Before Engine Start
# Measure individual battery volts while 2 x main 25Ah batteries disconnected (Isolator switch in Off position) via EFIS on its own battery backup  delta V < 0.3v if OK then switch isolator to Both
After Engine Start
# Check Alternator Charging Both A, B and back to Both batteries.
# Test Both Primary and Backup Engine Power Switches
# Test Engine Fuel Pumps - Switch Off Main Pump to test auto activation of backup, reset/arm
# Test Fuel Transfer Pumps - Switch Off Main Transfer Pump to test auto activation of backup, reset/arm
# Test ECU B and Coils
After Engine shut down
# Turn battery Isolator Switch to Off position and note Battery delta V before turning Off EFIS

My Key Failure mode consideration / assumptions
Alternator -
Short Circuit (Low risk but catastrophic) must be protected against via fuse
Over Voltage (Low risk) - EFIS Alarm - On reflection perhaps I ought include a Crow Bar but it does introduce complexity/danger
Batteries -
Open Circuit (Significant risk) - Solution - two batteries tied together reducing chances of failure and protects should failure occur
Shorted Cell (Low risk) - Outcome ???? Battery fire - Halon extinguisher 
Testing before and after flight picks up failure and lowers risk 
Keep Batteries away fro heat and vibration
Second battery provides more air time in case of Alternator failure though introduces significant weight
Crank Angle Sensor - 
Failure is catastrophic so armour and attention added 
Power Switching - 
Failure (High risk) therefore backup required 
No Relays as they introduce complexity

Key Questions
Crow Bar on Alternator?
Should I have gone with AeroElectriic circuit with Backup Buss etc. ?


Appreciate peoples thoughts.

Steve Izett - Perth Western Australia
Glasair Super II RG 
Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1C Prop MTV 7 Elec









Steve Izett.



On 1 Jan 2025, at 3:55 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Not sure if I should re-post the following and its two referenced threads here.

https://vansairforce.net/threads/n214fl-forced-landing.232017/

The battery failure mode must definitely be made well-known for electrical-dependent engine installations.

Finn



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