X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 20 [X] X-KAS-Score: 20 [X] From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic304-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.148] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.9) with ESMTPS id 730753 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:25:10 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.191.148; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1646007894; bh=aQ4FVNu7PqanWD9Db9XZm6T8YjYQ738JHF5PM3ojeDY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=r44hfyH4fmgNPIAHX7UQYZ36SFmqmI8jztn3MwJO4osPfqrKcScAm/wYdnyWZgJKBjUkwrfUKg3VGTh8GCD35/cfZ2kyDWaJ0rJ25QSEiX7ijFLBNWQ74oYeo/E4tlMbZn42fCMiK57a/5zHMbvQ8On47VMlngf9TJYI2li8xxMY9RktopIrcE6i6mOl3mZ6UQYkYvJMO3E9iviVJnm7Za8Lm/JS/0rFqiziGEy9sJcoXonvgqUxwNyCtYjtgvta0HdvwT7/uiIHS3Phbc7uqAEg+xnvgqURooHlIZCOD9BfhmUExe4IfK2mcHp6LV+GkPw9FLJpFCqLuwGVq7ah6A== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1646007894; bh=Cm5TcJZ8DOkrefJLnbJ7rRsICcoGnDHNak8PJviYsGC=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Subject:To:From:Date:From:Subject; b=VsTRAGXGNNl6eUNK0uP8wVgBez12aiJS/riN+0s1rtEP0Y0ahFjK5zKatxk16XEZ/ITHftVL5R/AZOKaAnCck96MJqH1gOzD+NxNPEvM9gkhdzxo9aR0OPxZjwJ671YteGZ86o/tRqrZdC8SRnTPvHHcXpOVuzdulq4oBOsi+5wGgRqrNfSa9Y49ceBiyxR6xfyikUTCTP02z0lw5pIimGTVnhOP579Ex83v2md9pvTjJQGcal+21etSe0SxbQoDaRAh9qOQeJsqHl6ybUQN1H6KmJqYbMGRQ7KacFukZh7wVtXgZOb2KxxfULGVcuKrihvPBfy5hekakl1cybhd4g== X-YMail-OSG: 444MGcwVM1mXcccPXMjnO._rAhT8SlhVt0YJfaHB7TiiQnvFMEMHnxT5bFifWef 2PZgHX9xco9Ouk4zYIgEK4wF5JxRnOj_3IqmAiY0OsQDlsO1ldKBumh7lfHwlYXDTT65LEIqiN0j XB5zZ1Z3c16bVIqYi6vibWUrkg0v8Jqu1iMs.EVKx7D7zs1IHxNyOGpim8Q5A7ZmvXEwQr7dIE_K QkusRw__.cdrOagrGmdIixSyKN2AnhvGytC3aE1tNZ7hRaUc21e79lTYzdNbx.LGV_7edLr2iy2k YW7_fY4oXzC32ocySj1cetcfiZwrNNRew.OAGggsQjFMTbtwjrBC8SmRxMscTYwMlCYavqaZtNGD fBtkAQCgECk8ua7EbCH7l4GCziFGaoBnge0g9vRy6SlarESOobqN8jn8ho3bwQPjz1bx04RNlG6z LqIgPeUKTVYEvBmcvzj8DrNJkquiR0orMj9Qm1ys_8MpBrk5yA1s7vyV4EAzfDWivPz0sr94IO9E wyv0jPKq.bfwc_KVy7B69zwle3biXTyY36rx3OCB2zLZs9kp9b2e9sLE6GuMO1M2UGsTVlPdJYnL oBo6ZYFHQNOjZJKgGef02e2d6jBEw_Ng2ha7SlmaTY1aw.8FveS_G0_MxZrV1K8gZLNStnZVflQD BodFCDhLqa8mjIl_.CcOmpATHaBLfEz5sfv0b_4dI2rK5Zl3sQYBtWfh.uAJEbuMSR5550wKpMeh xxlYT.s_IZh0tefiF8hSzSRJMDYQmEXMyZfiI2y9xj0JnIFFo03gSzrBav8_t8elk6YRWMCOXlyd vvAVhGxLdPEgsbA3rr8QCrwMnGSbwFfMSQ1T4DN9JUcHPdgUqEc2jxXEkEZ6PjwLRTr4s3bBtvyI iqDfu7r3YQom9mO.KsAGgSC6cioegqSVFsekqrP2zTGXxOmxyUeUfXlVblP.cU_BxCy1gQuPAbx1 RthQQ9c3vWTjZu07yRJX43znDxOpixIPwtX4AY6HErHjIaUWer329pSvR04NAEA6BYjIpMXoZgnw eGjpeZJGMNm_Rv2b_bw3qTRee69nLL64E5Nl0FaxkI9CgKCd_KXLi.j0KFfMXiXqFlDAvUTjuh6g JKFIVqlJhMwyG8GkwN0vasJ8mYth6U8FwFc_1TrO9Co7NfIKiyk2RbP8mAJhX72PNdvhGwLNAlS2 R2uToG8vbHoDKKKhAZ6GtFPViMXv89zIr.27__Yhfhec4A7Xva.C6dQLQp047I4BeHnrZCPWYRbg w0HvRSV3w32lK.2at1sGF2QVeX8Vj6eE6g_KYmNnl3uU5JyQcEy4fTU7hh7YBfRnCm.zQNR5j1Fe MQLySjKHRaRziPpAo0OsVJ9omSK4UnoLl1BGYo5ScffWtYHLyJFZCB89923bBcHAQIFp4lPiZwuL iGyCmEIQbHYWweGuVsFVD9bWQ1mDD7TPjZPSo7RWtYf7OPVEqlFNTm2jV4K6HelJpIlRmpgsUIgS XIt33sc9Eq8aJVJ6._l.GTUWSxB3LAq2ZS1cTfAjgs7IcuBQ_df1ArRHorGUZTqBVO1166sx9RNs kMHf2u20Ycy0C9Zu6OB_JvuzlDxaiMIikAg_iFGUeKvqqJEb8cx6YkcWgn84Y4FjhB7D.oTpyUN9 p255BnoB4.YbprSGqIogcTIe0C8UnH3_NYzsRtxXpj_hh5d15.OXWwsE7Sxf5BNaGh8obAcePDyy 4O6zE0zgDCoj.AXhg3ds4hLUYpeYfyarMaB2AoNwGePatI3sW7heHKcgVPgcj3HOqxmqX0M13oqY NQun35CQUzKnCVK823XAaY0t4LFw8QGIw4KkK3m3qE5ssMOniK1PCMTbmSMwxvCOojcmFjActHv8 rSpqkuIp_S4HHrTbB73hgyVS60fl3Qlv2OWvk_HLhiF2oXp4qLZvoPzl6N9cqb5h3eXjnvij8jIk driq.57lMpoGEx0MbsJrnr2VocDGWmGENVLUN3LvprSY5Xh53H8al9PkDhQo_xXKKP1zWstZMiZK 9laB1IwHsshqDdqOaXis9EIi6x9Dd91DqQTCDVvcljypvClQsfTrMUaOahRIrDmQhv6FwL7BalLZ yqd690e55EupMrzs_YruISov33_fJa_UVLKMQIF5IaVzjoi4.uSyluOopl_Du9wjDE9gP83sVn4N 47xa1qkscMYK2nCYxg0wuLDSitIYoz0phv.GDRSIApUjKDLGkt4bsj97q7aEILHkACcI8kt8cp_p iHIIO69rYF3N9rx8zqbWiHIY- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 00:24:54 +0000 Received: by kubenode500.mail-prod1.omega.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d2f8f4c62087fefded53e116247cef3a; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 00:24:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:24:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------89AD2B43B7DF6A0FF5626AD3" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220227-6, 02/27/2022), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.19797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Content-Length: 50654 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------89AD2B43B7DF6A0FF5626AD3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Ed. Thing is I trust your research more than mine :) Would have been nice if chart had numbers in the 180 - 220F range, which is where my interest is. (I thought it went to 100C.) Not sure I understand why specific heat is not directly proportional with density. But I don't know if 50/50 antifreeze is by volume or weight. Anyhow, looks like I don't have to worry about coolant flow. Looking at past postings, I saw a remark about the Renesis pump apparently being more effective that the 13B pump in spite of the cheap impeller. Perhaps that's why I'm getting better gal/min flow numbers in spite of my estimated collective 0.4 sq in restriction (2 x 0.5" ID) in spite of others 1" ID 0.8 sq in hose installations. I guess I should have posted spreadsheets showing gal/min for different RPMs rather than my inches of H2O head on pitot/static sensors. Could easily be misread by someone in the future. Has to use the WaterFlow.xls to convert measured head pressure to gal/min and entered pipe area is critical. Finn On 2/27/2022 11:19 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: > > > Well Looking at the chart you referernced it looks like the > mixture for 50/50 the CP could range from 0.79 at -30F to 088 at > 100F. IF 100 % glyco then at -10F we have a CP of 0.53 and at > 100 0f 0.66.  So looks like I picked a worst/best case > condition.  But, using your example I get a cp of 0.8807. Not a > 30% difference but more than 5% > > > In any case, I would suggest if you find data you feel  more confident > in, do not hesitate to subsitute it. > > Ed > > > pecific Heat of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions > > Specific Heat >  - /c_p > / - of ethylene glycol >  based > water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below > > Specific Heat - /c_p //(Btu/lb ^o F)/ // > Ethylene Glycol Solution > /(% by weight)/ Temperature /(°C)/ > -50 -40 -30 -20 -10 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 > *0* > > > > > 1.0038 1.0018 1.0004 0.99943 0.99902 0.99913 0.99978 1.0009 > 1.0026 10049 1.0076 > *10* > > > > > 0.97236 0.97422 0.97619 0.97827 0.98047 0.98279 0.98521 > 0.98776 0.99041 0.99318 0.99607 > *20* > > > > > 0.93576 0.93976 0.94375 0.94775 0.95175 0.95574 0.95974 > 0.96373 0.96773 0.97173 0.97572 > *30* > > > > 0.89373 0.89889 0.90405 0.90920 0.91436 0.91951 0.92467 > 0.92982 0.93498 0.94013 0.94529 0.95044 > *40* > > > 0.84605 0.85232 0.85858 0.86484 087111 0.87737 0.88364 0.88990 > 0.89616 0.90243 0.90869 0.91496 0.92122 > 50 > > 0.79288 0.80021 0.80753 0.81485 0.82217 0.82949 0.83682 > 0.84414 0.85146 0.85878 0.86610 0.87343 0.88075 0.88807 > *60* 0.72603 0.73436 0.74269 0.75102 0.75935 0.76768 0.77601 > 0.78434 0.79267 0.80100 0.80933 0.81766 0.82599 0.83431 0.84264 > 0.85097 > *70* 0.67064 0.67992 0.68921 0.69850 0.70778 0.71707 0.72636 > 073564 0.74493 0.75422 0.76350 0.77279 0.78207 0.79136 0.80065 > 0.80993 > *80* 0.61208 0.62227 0.63246 0.64265 0.65285 0.66304 0.67323 > 0.68343 0.69362 0.70381 0.71401 0.72420 0.73439 0.74458 0.75478 > 0.76497 > *90* > > > 0.58347 0.59452 0.60557 0.61662 0.62767 0.63872 0.64977 > 0.66082 0.67186 0.68291 0.69396 0.70501 0.71606 > *100* > > > > 0.53282 0.54467 0.55652 0.56838 0.58023 0.59209 0.60394 > 0.61579 0.62765 0.63950 0.65136 0.66321 > > I'm not sure how > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net > " > > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > > Sent: 2/26/2022 9:29:22 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet > >> From your 24 Aug 2012 post about cooling section in the spreadsheet: >> "Cooling mass flow is dependent on: >> 1. A  0.7 cp compared to pure water of 1.0 Cp - this compensates for >> the typical anitfreeze dilution of the specific heat of water. " >> >> Roughly weighing a 1 Gal 50/50 antifreeze jug I get maybe 7.9 pounds >> after subtracting 0.3 pound for the jug). Pure water about 8.3 >> pounds. That's about 5%. >> I realize it changes somewhat with temperature but nowhere near 30% ? >> >> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html >> >> Difference between water and 50/50 at 100C: 1000/1030 or 3%. Not 30%. >> >> Difference in specific heat (whatever that is): 1.0079 / 0.88807 = >> 13% (for 50/50 at 100C). >> >> What am I missing? >> >> Finn >> >> On 2/26/2022 10:48 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: >>> >>> I agree, must have got it from someplace credible - like Bill Shertz. >>> CP was 1.0 for pure H20 and somewhat less with antifreeze mixed in. >>> I had a primary pully from MazdaTrix that reduced water pump speed - >>> since engine was turning faster than normal in automobile, did not >>> want to have any cavitation.  So my water pump did turn a bit slower >>> than stock. >>> Not necessarily - note that water flow drops off if pump speed >>> increases into the "caviation range" >>> >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------ >>> From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>> " >> > >>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> > >>> Sent: 2/25/2022 10:39:43 AM >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet >>> >>>> Thanks Ed. >>>> >>>> But 185.85 seems pretty detailed for a SWAG. >>>> Any chance you got it from Bill Shertz's tests (which I >>>> unfortunately can't find the posts about)? >>>> >>>> What determines "Cp Coolant"? >>>> Heat transfer efficiency from engine to water and water to rad? >>>> >>>> From measuring the rims of the e-shaft pulley (122mm) and water >>>> pump pulley (112mm) it looks like the Renesis water pump runs a bit >>>> slower (factor 1.09 compared to your 1.18). >>>> >>>> Should water flow be directly proportional to water pump RPM? >>>> >>>> Finn >>>> >>>> On 2/25/2022 10:07 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: >>>>> Sorry, Finn. >>>>> >>>>> Too much water under the bridge, pretty sure I did not make it up >>>>> out of thin air.  I suspect I visited some pump websites to arrive >>>>> at a SWAG. >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>> ------ Original Message ------ >>>>> From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net >>>>> " >>>> > >>>>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>>> > >>>>> Sent: 2/24/2022 2:25:56 PM >>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's spreadsheet >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Ed, >>>>>> From where did you get the 13B coolant flow numbers (Pump Factor)? >>>>>> I want to be certain that I have adequate coolant flow. >>>>>> Finn >>>>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> --------------89AD2B43B7DF6A0FF5626AD3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks Ed. Thing is I trust your research more than mine :)

Would have been nice if chart had numbers in the 180 - 220F range, which is where my interest is. (I thought it went to 100C.)

Not sure I understand why specific heat is not directly proportional with density. But I don't know if 50/50 antifreeze is by volume or weight.

Anyhow, looks like I don't have to worry about coolant flow.

Looking at past postings, I saw a remark about the Renesis pump apparently being more effective that the 13B pump in spite of the cheap impeller.

Perhaps that's why I'm getting better gal/min flow numbers in spite of my estimated collective 0.4 sq in restriction (2 x 0.5" ID) in spite of others 1" ID 0.8 sq in hose installations.

I guess I should have posted spreadsheets showing gal/min for different RPMs rather than my inches of H2O head on pitot/static sensors. Could easily be misread by someone in the future. Has to use the WaterFlow.xls to convert measured head pressure to gal/min and entered pipe area is critical.

Finn

On 2/27/2022 11:19 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote:

Well Looking at the chart you referernced it looks like the mixture for 50/50 the CP could range from 0.79 at -30F to 088 at 100F.  IF 100 % glyco then at -10F we have a CP of 0.53 and at 100 0f 0.66.  So looks like I picked a worst/best case condition.  But, using your example I get a cp of 0.8807.  Not a 30% difference but more than 5%


In any case, I would suggest if you find data you feel  more confident in, do not hesitate to subsitute it.

Ed

pecific Heat of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions

Specific Heat - cp - of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below

Specific Heat - cp (Btu/lb oF) 
Ethylene Glycol Solution
(% by weight)		 Temperature (°C) 
-50 -40 -30 -20 -10 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
0




1.0038 1.0018 1.0004 0.99943 0.99902 0.99913 0.99978 1.0009 1.0026 10049 1.0076
10




0.97236 0.97422 0.97619 0.97827 0.98047 0.98279 0.98521 0.98776 0.99041 0.99318 0.99607
20




0.93576 0.93976 0.94375 0.94775 0.95175 0.95574 0.95974 0.96373 0.96773 0.97173 0.97572
30



0.89373 0.89889 0.90405 0.90920 0.91436 0.91951 0.92467 0.92982 0.93498 0.94013 0.94529 0.95044
40


0.84605 0.85232 0.85858 0.86484 087111 0.87737 0.88364 0.88990 0.89616 0.90243 0.90869 0.91496 0.92122
50

0.79288 0.80021 0.80753 0.81485 0.82217 0.82949 0.83682 0.84414 0.85146 0.85878 0.86610 0.87343 0.88075 0.88807
60 0.72603 0.73436 0.74269 0.75102 0.75935 0.76768 0.77601 0.78434 0.79267 0.80100 0.80933 0.81766 0.82599 0.83431 0.84264 0.85097
70 0.67064 0.67992 0.68921 0.69850 0.70778 0.71707 0.72636 073564 0.74493 0.75422 0.76350 0.77279 0.78207 0.79136 0.80065 0.80993
80 0.61208 0.62227 0.63246 0.64265 0.65285 0.66304 0.67323 0.68343 0.69362 0.70381 0.71401 0.72420 0.73439 0.74458 0.75478 0.76497
90


0.58347 0.59452 0.60557 0.61662 0.62767 0.63872 0.64977 0.66082 0.67186 0.68291 0.69396 0.70501 0.71606
100



0.53282 0.54467 0.55652 0.56838 0.58023 0.59209 0.60394 0.61579 0.62765 0.63950 0.65136 0.66321
I'm not sure how
------ Original Message ------
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: 2/26/2022 9:29:22 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet

From your 24 Aug 2012 post about cooling section in the spreadsheet:
"Cooling mass flow is dependent on:
1. A  0.7 cp compared to pure water of 1.0 Cp - this compensates for the typical anitfreeze dilution of the specific heat of water. "

Roughly weighing a 1 Gal 50/50 antifreeze jug I get maybe 7.9 pounds after subtracting 0.3 pound for the jug). Pure water about 8.3 pounds. That's about 5%.
I realize it changes somewhat with temperature but nowhere near 30% ?

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

Difference between water and 50/50 at 100C: 1000/1030 or 3%. Not 30%.

Difference in specific heat (whatever that is): 1.0079 / 0.88807 = 13% (for 50/50 at 100C).

What am I missing?

Finn

On 2/26/2022 10:48 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote:

I agree, must have got it from someplace credible - like Bill Shertz.
CP was 1.0 for pure H20 and somewhat less with antifreeze mixed in.
I had a primary pully from MazdaTrix that reduced water pump speed - since engine was turning faster than normal in automobile, did not want to have any cavitation.  So my water pump did turn a bit slower than stock.
Not necessarily - note that water flow drops off if pump speed increases into the "caviation range"


------ Original Message ------
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: 2/25/2022 10:39:43 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet

Thanks Ed.

But 185.85 seems pretty detailed for a SWAG.
Any chance you got it from Bill Shertz's tests (which I unfortunately can't find the posts about)?

What determines "Cp Coolant"?
Heat transfer efficiency from engine to water and water to rad?

From measuring the rims of the e-shaft pulley (122mm) and water pump pulley (112mm) it looks like the Renesis water pump runs a bit slower (factor 1.09 compared to your 1.18).

Should water flow be directly proportional to water pump RPM?

Finn

On 2/25/2022 10:07 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote:
Sorry, Finn.

Too much water under the bridge, pretty sure I did not make it up out of thin air.  I suspect I  visited some pump websites to arrive at a SWAG.

Ed

------ Original Message ------
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: 2/24/2022 2:25:56 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's spreadsheet

Hi Ed,
 
From where did you get the 13B coolant flow numbers (Pump Factor)?
 
I want to be certain that I have adequate coolant flow.
 
Finn
 
 
---



--------------89AD2B43B7DF6A0FF5626AD3--