X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pj1-f43.google.com ([209.85.216.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 707607 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 18:21:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.216.43; envelope-from=stephen.izett@gmail.com Received: by mail-pj1-f43.google.com with SMTP id b8so6053778pjb.4 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:21:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=CJWjVXN1jEl0DoS+Vi8ZwVoy0y2Ko+GSj2Ke3JgIkfA=; b=pKrdJo8csN9SPIh08Jvavb8HF7WRKXrHdns1Nm1Alr0xDE6O44Rj08FxRCKH+9DydU SB/WWs9OrQQ9VX7sVn595WIs6CVFJLt+irVIHn3VzQVKvDAbDQnR2b9lIWno3UfIbalc LMecrLfosHH14q7JoXKoB5gt9Ekye+abnNBItvIAmidQoa6wwCpvcWF9XqHJQUX6fRir dwDSmvJfwuAXexDwZwn5Zv1R6O9cvQI5YrPRs3Ca5mrekfmO6Azon+KjJodXa7S5b8tb pFxI+f426zy+S33nI2+ltH91OM9G16RzUfaH/ENACV7C0s7xdm5ujko/gNIejb0C1gWn Q0Zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=CJWjVXN1jEl0DoS+Vi8ZwVoy0y2Ko+GSj2Ke3JgIkfA=; b=6HjzB7KOGXsIqdv6+UvbZC0NZHEnvgRqiiPzzs82CzORp9CC0F/+9Yw2CoX0BxukoW C8qFOujbsxHC/YWWk/oxWoylsHOjENfV3oADak0pTXPBnDWY0e720uJ7aHoaTucunER2 tOauzeEcWIKaoC8d5hKkvlN5MpBf/e8mcgAbczw/Ullqi65GXzTNBrIUH3btt3brtTby /QTCzY9xEaPpyDaDh2K6DzwFSHd+BxjMp6DOqSyyoGd81WrbeqJXAOZ+aDf2YcSBbWdE fmPQAhKJCLN98HbY4rlw3F81FAxkXVP+plkcuz/KQBGGPfqw9CV4M3yQMOBVaruKZSVr Jf/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tf6VXgsU7dPcYa9zY8NhIhrPpROCm1El5q+M93CzRqb2rZSwz 5FYAAaZLxW2lMrmCf4cX7sVdJuanHd1wEA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtPKFXOTMP7RNnAlv3F0EDGDgWCo1t1z1PpxBet1JlPf7n/nB1GuKXnh5V54IFtxz6pvhl1w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:f652:b0:150:1af4:85e7 with SMTP id m18-20020a170902f65200b001501af485e7mr8367364plg.105.1645831261689; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:21:01 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from smtpclient.apple (220-235-100-4.dyn.iinet.net.au. [220.235.100.4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id gw2-20020a17090b0a4200b001bca7935e27sm8821316pjb.0.2022.02.25.15.20.59 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:21:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_02A3F3D4-6374-4F86-97B0-E3B0EBE2B557" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Timing Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 07:20:56 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <6A64070A-8400-433A-9772-02CD4260FBEE@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) --Apple-Mail=_02A3F3D4-6374-4F86-97B0-E3B0EBE2B557 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Guys. As far as I can find, the EC2/3 A8 (Renesis) version of the manuals does = not have the section - =E2=80=99Setting Nominal Timing=E2=80=99 that are = referred to in Mode #8 instructions. What is said is:=20 You should not make any adjustments in mode 8 until you have timed the = engine statically as described on page 4 in INITIAL TIMING ADJUSTMENT. Can anyone provide the instructions for timing the engine statically. I=E2=80=99d always thought that the Renesis came statically timed, as = the CAS is fixed. I have now just found after a good deal of searching in the archives = some info about timing the engine, but there are still bits missing in = my mind. I found a comment from Tracy: If the MP is above 24" Hg the nominal timing is 23-24 deg BTDC but = typically the MP will be lower than that while in-flight. The EC2/3 = increases the advance below 24". This improves fuel economy. The lower = the MP, the more the 'vacuum advance' is. Be aware of this if you are = trying to set timing with a timing light (not recommended).=20 Tracy So - is setting timing with a timing light not recommended? I also found some thought from Tracy about adjusting timing in flight: 1. Establish normal cruise and get the plane *perfectly* trimmed in zero = turbulance air. 2. Lean engine for best economy. This is about 1525 - 1550 EGT on = mine. This varies with altitude & powersetting. 3. Put EC2 in mode 8 and advance timing 1 step (1.875 degrees) and note = change in rpm (a digital tach w/ <=3D 10 rpm resolution is a must). 4. If you got an increase at step 3, repeat until there is no increase = in rpm. 5. Retard the timing 1 step. So is anyone able to provide: 1. Details from another version of the manual that has the =E2=80=98Initia= l Timing Adjustment=E2=80=99 section and whether this is defunct for = Renesis? 2. Otherwise any instructions on how to set the Nominal Timing amount = and at what RPM. Is timing set at idle OR do you set it at an rpm above = a point at which the EC2/3 advance algorithm has done its thing? 3. Should ultimately the timing be set in flight via a procedure such as = what I found above. I=E2=80=99m just not understanding why this seems so hard to find, or am = I missing something that is obvious to everyone. Thanks Steve Izett > On 25 Feb 2022, at 4:12 pm, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = wrote: >=20 > Hi Guys. >=20 > Here is an update on what I discovered in relation to timing of the = Renesis 4 port. >=20 > I discovered that the trigger wheel has a stamped arrow at the edge = (See top of trigger wheel in photo) and this lines up with a reference = point on the front case adjacent and above the e-shaft and trigger = wheel. > I believe this mark in the trigger wheel is likely 5 degrees ATDC. > I used the technique of connecting a manometer like tube containing = coloured fluid to one of the plug holes. When I rocked the prop back and = forwards I could see a peak in the fluid in the tube very near where = that arrow lines up with the reference point on the front cover. I could = not read it more accurately than 5 degrees. >=20 > I then put a bit of paint in the arrow and used a timing light to = record nominal timing of ~16deg in advance of the arrow, meaning 16+5 =3D = 21 degrees BTDC of nominal timing. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m hoping someone might be able to affirm I=E2=80=99m on the = right track here, or not. >=20 > I then adjusted the timing using Mode #8 advancing it 5 clicks (5 = degrees) and this was evident in the running engine when rechecked with = the timing light. >=20 > I called our local rotary engine specialist friend and he said that he = sets up RX8 engines with Motec ignitions at a nominal 26 degrees BTDC = and that the OEM computers have even more advance for reasons of = emission reduction and that retarding OEM RX8=E2=80=99s yields = performance improvements. >=20 > So I=E2=80=99m wondering what this means. >=20 > Can others offer any further feedback on nominal ignition timing of = Renesis engines and particularly the 4 Port. >=20 > It crossed my mind that different coils might have slightly different = trigger circuit delays, therefore changing the timing, but I think any = difference in delays would likely be very small and not a significant = factor to be considered. We are using LS2 Coils. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m a bit shy to simply add 5 degrees of Advance and make the = nominal timing 26 degrees BTDC. I thought I might Advance it 3 degrees = and test fly it. > Appreciate your thoughts here. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m wondering the what kind of change those 5 degrees of = advance will bring to EGT=E2=80=99s, Engine Cooling and power. > Tracy, Lynn H, are you there? >=20 > I realise now I should have sorted this out ages ago! >=20 > Thanks everyone. >=20 > Steve Izett >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 >> On 25 Feb 2022, at 6:42 am, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = > wrote: >>=20 >> Thanks guys. >>=20 >> Dave, did your measure the timing with a timing light and with the = prop on? >> Must have been pretty windy getting that data! >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ll mark up the ring gear with a TDC mark this morning and = measure the current EC2 base Mode timing >>=20 >> Which method do people prefer to get TDC? I think I have read about = these 3 methods. >> 1. Rotor #1 equal Screwdriver depth to rotor face through both plug = holes >> 2. Rotor #1 volume null using water in a tube - I think this might be = from Lynn H >> 3. Rotor #2 bisecting Apex seal across T & L spark plug hole >>=20 >> Can anyone else tell us their nominal timing at idle. Ours is = ~1800rpm.=20 >> And particularly anyone running a 4 port renesis like Tracy=E2=80=99s = RV4. >>=20 >> Cheers >>=20 >> Steve >>=20 >>> On 25 Feb 2022, at 6:07 am, Pam & Dave Williams padajute@idcnet.com = > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hello Steve, >>>=20 >>> My timing is locked in at 35 degrees before top dead center from = idle to 6500 RPM. You are on the right track because retarded timing = will raise exhaust temperature. I have a 13b with Tracy's EC2\EM2 and = the RD-1AB redrive.=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks >>> Dave Williams >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 6:45 PM >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Timing >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Hi friends >>>=20 >>> On my last flight I experienced high indicated EGT=E2=80=99s so as = part of looking into this I would like to check my timing. >>>=20 >>> I have a Renesis engine and Tracy=E2=80=99s EC2.=20 >>> In his A8 (Renesis) version of the handbook under Mode#8 Timing = Adjustment it says to refer to =E2=80=98Initial Timing Adjustment=E2=80=99= , however I can=E2=80=99t find any such instructions in this version, = probably because it has a fixed position CAS.=20 >>> Can anyone enlighten me on what the static timing should at a given = idle rpm? >>>=20 >>> Much appreciated. >>>=20 >>> Steve Izett >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >=20 --Apple-Mail=_02A3F3D4-6374-4F86-97B0-E3B0EBE2B557 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Guys.

As far as I = can find, the EC2/3 A8 (Renesis) version of the manuals does not have = the section - =E2=80=99Setting Nominal Timing=E2=80=99 that are referred = to in Mode #8 instructions.
What is said = is: 
You should not make any adjustments in mode 8 until you have timed the engine statically as described on page 4 in = INITIAL TIMING ADJUSTMENT.
Can anyone provide the = instructions for timing the engine statically.
I=E2=80= =99d always thought that the Renesis came statically timed, as the CAS = is fixed.

I = have now just found after a good deal of searching in the archives some = info about timing the engine, but there are still bits missing in my = mind.

I found = a comment from Tracy:

If the MP is above 24" Hg the nominal timing is 23-24 deg BTDC but typically the MP will be lower than that while = in-flight.  The EC2/3 increases the advance below 24".  This improves fuel economy. The lower the MP, the more the 'vacuum advance' is.  Be aware of = this if you are trying to set timing with a timing light (not recommended). 

Tracy

So - is setting timing with a = timing light not recommended?

I also found some thought from Tracy = about adjusting timing in flight:

1. Establish normal cruise and get the = plane *perfectly* trimmed in zero turbulance air.

2.  Lean engine for best economy.  This is about 1525 - 1550 EGT on mine.  This varies with altitude & powersetting.

3.  Put EC2 in mode 8 and advance timing 1 step (1.875 degrees) and note change in rpm (a = digital tach w/ <=3D 10 rpm resolution is a must).

4.  If you got an increase at step 3, repeat until there is no increase in rpm.

5.  Retard the timing 1 step.


So is anyone able to provide:
1. Details = from another version of the manual that has the =E2=80=98Initial Timing = Adjustment=E2=80=99 section and whether this is defunct for = Renesis?
2. Otherwise any instructions on how to = set the Nominal Timing amount and at what RPM. Is timing set at idle OR = do you set it at an rpm above a point at which the EC2/3 advance = algorithm has done its thing?
3. Should ultimately = the timing be set in flight via a procedure such as what I found = above.

I=E2=80=99= m just not understanding why this seems so hard to find, or am I missing = something that is obvious to everyone.

Thanks

Steve Izett




On 25 Feb 2022, at 4:12 pm, = Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Guys.

Here is an update on = what I discovered in relation to timing of the Renesis 4 port.

I discovered that the = trigger wheel has a stamped arrow at the edge (See top of trigger wheel = in photo) and this lines up with a reference point on the front case = adjacent and above the e-shaft and trigger wheel.
I believe this mark in the trigger = wheel is likely 5 degrees ATDC.
I used the = technique of connecting a manometer like tube containing coloured fluid = to one of the plug holes. When I rocked the prop back and forwards I = could see a peak in the fluid in the tube very near where that arrow = lines up with the reference point on the front cover. I could not read = it more accurately than 5 degrees.

I then put a bit of paint in the arrow = and used a timing light to record nominal timing of ~16deg in advance of = the arrow, meaning 16+5 =3D 21 degrees BTDC of nominal timing.

I=E2=80=99m hoping = someone might be able to affirm I=E2=80=99m on the right track here, or = not.

I then = adjusted the timing using Mode #8 advancing it 5 clicks (5 degrees) and = this was evident in the running engine when rechecked with the timing = light.

I = called our local rotary engine specialist friend and he said that he = sets up RX8 engines with Motec ignitions at a nominal 26 degrees BTDC = and that the OEM computers have even more advance for reasons of = emission reduction and that retarding OEM RX8=E2=80=99s yields = performance improvements.

So I=E2=80=99m wondering what this means.

Can others offer any = further feedback on nominal ignition timing of Renesis engines and = particularly the 4 Port.

It crossed my mind that different coils might have slightly = different trigger circuit delays, therefore changing the timing, but I = think any difference in delays would likely be very small and not a = significant factor to be considered. We are using LS2 Coils.

I=E2=80=99m a bit shy to = simply add 5 degrees of Advance and make the nominal timing 26 degrees = BTDC. I thought I might Advance it 3 degrees and test fly it.
Appreciate your thoughts here.

I=E2=80=99m wondering the what kind of = change those 5 degrees of advance will bring to EGT=E2=80=99s, Engine = Cooling and power.
Tracy, Lynn H, are you = there?

I = realise now I should have sorted this out ages ago!

Thanks = everyone.

Steve = Izett


<RX8 Trigger = Wheel.jpeg>


On 25 Feb 2022, at 6:42 am, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Thanks= guys.

Dave, did your measure the timing = with a timing light and with the prop on?
Must have been = pretty windy getting that data!

I=E2=80=99ll = mark up the ring gear with a TDC mark this morning and measure the = current EC2 base Mode timing

Which method = do people prefer to get TDC? I think I have read about these 3 = methods.
1. Rotor #1 equal Screwdriver depth to rotor face = through both plug holes
2. Rotor #1 volume null using = water in a tube - I think this might be from Lynn H
3. = Rotor #2 bisecting Apex seal across T & L spark plug hole

Can anyone else tell us their nominal timing = at idle. Ours is ~1800rpm.
And particularly anyone = running a 4 port renesis like Tracy=E2=80=99s RV4.

Cheers

Steve

On 25 Feb 2022, at 6:07 = am, Pam & Dave Williams padajute@idcnet.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hello Steve,

My timing is locked = in at 35 degrees before top dead center from idle to 6500 RPM. You are = on the right track because retarded timing will raise exhaust = temperature. I have a 13b with Tracy's EC2\EM2 and the RD-1AB redrive. =

Thanks
Dave Williams

-----Original Message-----
From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: = Wednesday, February 23, 2022 6:45 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Timing


Hi = friends

On my last flight I experienced = high indicated EGT=E2=80=99s so as part of looking into this I would = like to check my timing.

I have a Renesis = engine and Tracy=E2=80=99s EC2.
In his A8 (Renesis) = version of the handbook under Mode#8 Timing Adjustment it says to refer = to =E2=80=98Initial Timing Adjustment=E2=80=99, however I can=E2=80=99t = find any such instructions in this version, probably because it has a = fixed position CAS.
Can anyone enlighten me on what the = static timing should at a given idle rpm?

Much appreciated.

Steve Izett


--
Homepage: =  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br class=3D"">

--
Homepage: =  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br class=3D"">


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br class=3D"">


= --Apple-Mail=_02A3F3D4-6374-4F86-97B0-E3B0EBE2B557--