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[203.59.74.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l12sm12135661pfc.182.2022.02.20.22.52.57 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:52:59 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_53656943-55F0-492F-84B5-DBBA5EA010C7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Coolant flow sensors Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:52:55 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0A1ACC87-8555-4EB7-BC88-58B2C1DA9436@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) --Apple-Mail=_53656943-55F0-492F-84B5-DBBA5EA010C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Finn I=E2=80=99m sure glad I enjoy the process and doing the science. But I = am hoping to nail it all down soon. We keep kicking goals so I=E2=80=99m still in there. I get what you mean re not needing absolute readings. I=E2=80=99m the = same, just want to know that the differential pressure across the core = at various points is the same. I use 5 of those MPX10 sensors. They all have different offset voltages = and one in particular is way different from the others. Its great to be able to plug them directly into the EGT or CHT Skyview = inputs and adjust the polynomial to get usable data. The approx 1m runs from the sensors means I get plenty of noise but the = data is still very readable. After a flight I download the log into EXCEL. I standardise each output = data column to zero before the engine was started. Id love to have 8 of the latter compensated transducers with built in = amplifiers but I don't want to spend the dollars. Let me know how you go with the testing of the two circuits. Cheers Steve > On 21 Feb 2022, at 10:02 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Steve. > I'm using the MPX10 pressure sensors (10KPa, 1.45psi, 40inH2O max = pressure). >=20 > My time to fill 5 gallon bucket via garden hose at different pressures = unfortunately does not match the pressure readings well. > If you look in the attached spreadsheet and play with cell A2 (pipe = inner diameter), you'll see that a small change of diameter = proportionately changes the calculated flow. Measured inside diameter to = 17mm or 0.67 inch. But the temp well, static and pitot 1/16"OD tubes = probably changes that to a bit lower. I guess absolute flow rates are = not as important as difference between left and right rad flow rates at = this point. Too lazy to make new sensors or probes. Time to reinstall = them in the return lines and do some engine runs. Hopefully won't get = above the16 GPM MPX10 max flow and pressure limit. >=20 > Yeah, cooling optimization is like herding cats. >=20 > I got more inlet shaping work to do; pencil camera looking at tufts in = the inlets. But at this point I really want to see if there is a = significant difference in coolant flow through left and right rads in my = quest to discover why the significant different coolant deltas over left = and right rads. I do suspect more air turbulence in left inlet duct, but = want to rule out coolant flow difference at this point.=20 >=20 > 33+ hours in the air and still haven't determined Vx and Vy :( >=20 > Finn =20 >=20 > On 2/20/2022 6:48 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = wrote: >> Hi Finn >>=20 >> I smiled reading your question about =E2=80=98is that 10 or 20 = inches'. I remember thinking exactly the same thing! >> I think the difference between the two levels is the correct = pressure. But I=E2=80=99m working with a pentium#1 cluster of neutrons! >> All the best with the experimenting. >>=20 >> I found a significant fault in my experimenting on Saturday. >> I=E2=80=99ve been fine tuning the H2O diffuser shape using the = differential transducers across the face.=20 >> Then made new exits for the cowl and flight tested. The temps were = fantastic! Peaked at 90C. >> Then realised that I had some flights back disconnected the front = gear door closing mechanism!=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve flown the last few test flights thinking the gear door = was closed when it was open. >> I reconnected it and did a flight test. The hottest day I had flown - = OAT of ~37C. >> Both Oil and H2O temps quickly hit 110C. >> On reviewing the log data after the flight, delta pressures across = the H2O rad plummeted to less than half compared with the same airspeed = and when I unknowingly had the front gear door open. >> Ive got a real problem with my exit air! So reviewing he cowl exits = again. >>=20 >> In relation to EC2 MCT programming. Ive done some work and on the = last flight it was so much better and hands off. >> I did play with the MCT entries in those addresses used at startup = and early idle while warming up. Addresses 0-31 >> I added 30 points of enrichment. The result was that it started more = quickly and idled better. Good outcome. >>=20 >> Cheers >>=20 >> Steve Izett >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 21 Feb 2022, at 1:34 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net = > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Finally got around to making coolant flow "sensors". (Used existing = 3/4" cu pipe with wells for temperature sensors. Maybe a bad idea = because of the restriction may not make it true 0.75" ID.) >>>=20 >>> Trying to calibrate pressure sensors. >>> Have a hose with water. Connect to vacuum and pressure ports of = sensor when water is level. When I raise one end of the hose to get a = 20" difference between the two water levels, is that 10" or 20" H2O? >>>=20 >>> Yesterday I filled a 5 gal bucket through the sensors, timing it to = 9 gal/min. Pressure readout indicated what I had previously gotten as = 35.25" H2O. >>> Something is obviously wrong. Perhaps the 35.25" H2O was really half = of that? >>>=20 >>> Moving on. Trying to make a formula to convert inH2O to Gal/min. >>> hw (in H2O) =3D 0.186 (vfpm / 60)2=EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD where vfpm =3D = velocity (ft/min). >>> Vfpm =3D 60 * Sqrt(Hw / 0.186) >>> 231 cuIn / gallon. >>> Area of 3/4" pipe: 0.44 sq in. >>> 231/0.44 =3D 525" or 44 feet/min for 1 Gal/min flow. >>> So gal/min =3D 60 * Sqrt(Hw / 0.186) / 44 >>> 60 * Sqrt(20" / 0.186) / 44 ~ 13.6 gal/min. Close to Steve's 16 = gal/min through 0.8" pipe. >>>=20 >>> Anyone seeing a mistake here? >>>=20 >>> Need to repeat my filling 5 gal bucket through sensors test, but = need to get my pressure sensor calibration right first. >>>=20 >>> Finn >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 8/21/2021 12:15 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu = wrote: >>>> Finn, >>>>=20 >>>> 20" of water column corresponded to 16 gal/min through a 0.8" dia = tube.=EF=BF=BD Coolant delta T is based on measurements in my plane. = Typically, I see about 10 deg F delta T at a cruise power setting. >>>>=20 >>>> If I remember correctly, Bill Shertz made water pump flow rate = measurements with a system he set up for this purpose. >>>>=20 >>>> Steve Boese=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft = on behalf of Finn Lassen = finn.lassen@verizon.net = = >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2021 6:04 AM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft = >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant flow sensors >>>> =EF=BF=BD >>>> Thank you Steve. Exactly what I need. I can make those. >>>>=20 >>>> What were the approximate pressures? >>>>=20 >>>> On a related note, what is the 15F coolant temp deltas you mention = based on?=20 >>>> 35 gpm coolant flow cooling 180 HP? >>>>=20 >>>> I keep wondering where the 35 gpm comes from. >>>>=20 >>>> Mainly by reducing oil cooler exit air area, I'm now down to 200F = @130 mph @ about 4,000' density altitude and 70F OAT. Can climb at full = power to about 1,500' on a 85F day (keeping speed at 110-120 mph). Only = small incremental improvements so far.. Looking for that magic change = that will lower that to 180F. >>>>=20 >>>> After working with air flow, I think I'll now circle back to = coolant flow. Coolant delta over right rad still higher than left rad. = Am thinking of hooking up a garden hose to rad inputs and see how = quickly 5 gal buckets will fill up from each rad output But 35 gpm is a = lot more than a garde >>>> n hose can supply? >>>>=20 >>>> But flow sensors should give better real world results.. >>>>=20 >>>> Finn >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 > = = Virus-free. www.avast.com = = -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --Apple-Mail=_53656943-55F0-492F-84B5-DBBA5EA010C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Finn

I=E2=80=99m = sure glad I enjoy the process and doing the science. But I am hoping to = nail it all down soon.
We keep kicking goals so = I=E2=80=99m still in there.

I get what you mean re not needing absolute readings. I=E2=80=99= m the same, just want to know that the differential pressure across the = core at various points is the same.

I use 5 of those MPX10 sensors. They = all have different offset voltages and one in particular is way = different from the others.
Its great to be able to = plug them directly into the EGT or CHT Skyview inputs and adjust the = polynomial to get usable data.
The approx 1m runs = from the sensors means I get plenty of noise but the data is still very = readable.
After a flight I download the log into = EXCEL. I standardise each output data column to zero before the engine = was started.

Id = love to have 8 of the latter compensated transducers with built in = amplifiers but I don't want to spend the dollars.
Let me know how you go with the = testing of the two circuits.

Cheers

Steve


On 21 Feb 2022, at 10:02 am, = Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=20 =20
Thanks Steve.
I'm using the MPX10 pressure sensors (10KPa, 1.45psi, 40inH2O max pressure).

My time to fill 5 gallon bucket via garden hose at different pressures unfortunately does not match the pressure readings = well.
If you look in the attached spreadsheet and play with cell A2 (pipe inner diameter), you'll see that a small change of diameter proportionately changes the calculated flow. Measured inside diameter to 17mm or 0.67 inch. But the temp well, static and pitot 1/16"OD tubes probably changes that to a bit lower. I guess absolute flow rates are not as important as difference between left and right rad flow rates at this point. Too lazy to make new sensors or probes. Time to reinstall them in the return lines and do some engine runs. Hopefully won't get above  the16 GPM = MPX10 max flow and pressure limit.

Yeah, cooling optimization is like herding cats.

I got more inlet shaping work to do; pencil camera looking at tufts in the inlets. But at this point I really want to see if there is a significant difference in coolant flow through left and right rads in my quest to discover why the significant different coolant deltas over left and right rads. I do suspect more air turbulence in left inlet duct, but want to rule out coolant flow difference at this point.

33+ hours in the air and still haven't determined Vx and Vy :(

Finn 

On 2/20/2022 6:48 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = wrote:
Hi Finn

I smiled reading your question about =E2=80=98is = that 10 or 20 inches'. I remember thinking exactly the same thing!
I think the difference between the two levels is = the correct pressure. But I=E2=80=99m working with a pentium#1 = cluster of neutrons!
All the best with the experimenting.

I found a significant fault in my experimenting on Saturday.
I=E2=80=99ve been fine tuning the H2O diffuser = shape using the differential transducers across the face. 
Then made new exits for the cowl and flight = tested. The temps were fantastic! Peaked at 90C.
Then realised that I had some flights back disconnected the front gear door closing mechanism! 
I=E2=80=99ve flown the last few test flights = thinking the gear door was closed when it was open.
I reconnected it and did a flight test. The = hottest day I had flown - OAT of ~37C.
Both Oil and H2O temps quickly hit 110C.
On reviewing the log data after the flight, delta pressures across the H2O rad plummeted to less than half compared with the same airspeed and when I unknowingly had the front gear door open.
Ive got a real problem with my exit air! So reviewing he cowl exits again.

In relation to EC2 MCT programming. Ive done some work and on the last flight it was so much better and hands = off.
I did play with the MCT entries in those addresses used at startup and early idle while warming up. Addresses = 0-31
I added 30 points of enrichment. The result was = that it started more quickly and idled better. Good outcome.

Cheers

Steve Izett



On 21 Feb 2022, at 1:34 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Finally got around to making coolant flow "sensors". (Used existing 3/4" cu pipe with wells for temperature sensors. Maybe a bad idea because of the restriction may not make it true 0.75" ID.)
=
Trying to calibrate pressure sensors.
Have a hose with water. Connect to vacuum and pressure ports of sensor when water is level. When I raise one end of the hose to get a 20" difference between the two water levels, is that 10" or 20" H2O?

Yesterday I filled a 5 gal bucket through the sensors, timing it to 9 gal/min. Pressure readout indicated what I had previously gotten as 35.25" H2O.
Something is obviously wrong. Perhaps the 35.25" H2O was really half of that?

Moving on. Trying to make a formula to convert inH2O to Gal/min.
hw (in H2O) =3D 0.186 (vfpm / 60)2=EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD where = vfpm =3D velocity (ft/min).
Vfpm =3D 60 * Sqrt(Hw / 0.186)
231 cuIn / gallon.
Area of 3/4" pipe: 0.44 sq in.
231/0.44 =3D 525" or 44 feet/min for 1 Gal/min flow.
So gal/min =3D 60 * Sqrt(Hw / 0.186) / 44
60 * Sqrt(20" / 0.186) / 44 ~ 13.6 gal/min. Close to Steve's 16 gal/min through 0.8" pipe.

Anyone seeing a mistake here?

Need to repeat my filling 5 gal bucket through sensors test, but need to get my pressure sensor calibration right first.

Finn



On 8/21/2021 12:15 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu wrote:
Finn,

=
20" of = water column corresponded to 16 gal/min through a 0.8" dia tube.=EF=BF=BD Coolant delta T is based on = measurements in my plane. Typically, I see about 10 deg F delta T at a cruise power setting.

If I = remember correctly, Bill Shertz made water pump flow rate measurements with a system he set up for this purpose.

Steve = Boese=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD
From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net<flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2021 6:04 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant flow sensors
=EF=BF=BD
Thank you Steve. Exactly what I need. I can make those.

What were the approximate pressures?

On a related note, what is the 15F coolant temp deltas you mention based on? 
35 gpm coolant flow cooling 180 HP?

I keep wondering where the 35 gpm comes from.

Mainly by reducing oil cooler exit air area, I'm now down to 200F @130 mph @ about 4,000' density altitude and 70F OAT. Can climb at full power to about 1,500' on a 85F day (keeping speed at 110-120 mph). Only small incremental improvements so far.. Looking for that magic change that will lower that to 180F.

After working with air flow, I think I'll now circle back to coolant flow. Coolant delta over right rad still higher than left rad. Am thinking of hooking up a garden hose to rad inputs and see how quickly 5 gal buckets will fill up from each rad output But 35 gpm is a lot more than a = garde
n hose can supply?

But flow sensors should give better real world results..

Finn




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