X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=G36Dz7pLIlQEX1qW0uezFw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=7W27xTc0sAI1rKB3q90A:9 a=UxFAlpRvD8Xddlgu:21 a=QAeDC-VVrNrIuYq1:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=0WLq_EbfWreYwS5-2BcA:9 a=XwPu79emrclKVPdv:21 a=1cfRhQivcgb5tv32:21 a=4kcuuZP2zI17ykSE:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oo1-f51.google.com ([209.85.161.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 605551 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 05 Aug 2020 02:11:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.51; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-oo1-f51.google.com with SMTP id j19so2883337oor.2 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 23:11:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=A1yxlpQZ9yFBD7mJjv3NwgOKWM6H53wtKSrZKXf/1r0=; b=THCkGRU0CPeH7UPpF/0yxvdr+j78tZLb/oC2pg2qxrRyQCnijAlrCsU5eaTOovLzg7 +2wHN0RNk+0svHGPdBjr5fkbeVqQAkhSJYchkT/nVnGzmNgclgBTGYUDo+z26BuLkP1e Lbiqi95qmRznqT7BWVS7D59lBVp+CsScDVn3RBZ0d1XE+5faS2DKQJCzt95Rfwp/ZBoM 2wLjHJpLwTPIkRUlP9WjNlsStjJplzCsX7nvUOiIhTJStPmQh0rggDciqF7ptxPqCbCR Z8lVtM0PiQOPLvwewYHuKyhipUEHI4IAY+JRMb781fDHb+BUA+lTl6I7BtDLEoEeWgAX lSxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=A1yxlpQZ9yFBD7mJjv3NwgOKWM6H53wtKSrZKXf/1r0=; b=ua56CiV8FTw0naXVn+ZNJOlZXEyJqQh2Q304qE5Kr7B02C6gQpfVzaH31qgIdFWNEF HYpR8KFb97EW22dKH2jIDu/vODVW+HDVP3BtEy/N7yRgwBoFETh5B2u39Gfi7x4GxcYZ w76xroOkdD7HDARi4kjG00JbOl0E54hVyJrhz5cE9eqlSXxI4MdXybX2aQIR1XHdp3Cs voWQO6ooFBHkpOw5tDVGrikVpME8YY7aX07+2MiN4CcYycikkPxZ6eP+yz/LvXR/11SS xt8j2Vmem271suFXjWrjXcdXTa48+5YPChI5t7lbzcUEadIHesC3g8eeFHy8lo/GVD7Y gvAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533JDoZvUIDnPTFFVvZTwqEPJDJNSE4H2dySXqfhB/EqGcpXO3Fl GeVHm4YXGhAX4FKxcpeKvuyrHs76AIQIJ+wV8XBM X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwBHySZKt6UccqGt497gl3dpREXzAefHB2bOkCdauiTn+A9KIQvJrdLjWZJ+Z7Nhzds1nifJwMHX+b79OPipr8= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:9572:: with SMTP id n47mr1359901ooi.37.1596607884596; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 23:11:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:11:12 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce99b405ac1b3dbe" --000000000000ce99b405ac1b3dbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave; I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should have then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you do, if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go for the "stage 4". The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the finish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with international shipping. So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over the edge and call him back with my visa#. If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. Todd (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that there is less fans than my beer league games) On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Todd, > > Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. Have > tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the = job. > Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $100 > cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path o= f > fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that to= o > many times before. > > Thanks, Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Neil; > > I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it > was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later th= is > fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just g= et > one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a > no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. > Then I'm only paying shipping one way. > > So for you that would make even more sense. > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave and all, > > Finally great advice that I cannot get > anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line go= es dead. The oil > cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo > failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that= can fit > into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- > all 5 gallons of it. > > Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight > both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will be > $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be > another $300 at least. > > > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Hi Dave; > > What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? > > > > Todd Bartrim > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. > > > > Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its > proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be > giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhaps > you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not goi= ng > to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to > achieve it. > > > > The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b it > ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts. > I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see wh= at > I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for > about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was runnin= g > over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably onl= y > lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. > The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home and > decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k > altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. > > > > My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-of= f > valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my > installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the > exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you ca= n > get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you > need. > > > > Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are > realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to > fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste > various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the > internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Try > to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away > from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You wi= ll > find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily > available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an > aircraft. > > > > Best, > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Group, > > I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I > settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to > not get into > > any overspeed problems..........FWIW > > > > http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 > > > > Kelly troyer > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Dave, > > Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the > upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock > Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > James, > > I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have > options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the > level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about > Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or > TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. > > > > Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate variou= s > parameters in selecting a turbo. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > James, > > 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. Thi= nk they > have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying t= o > get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk = to > drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi turb= os > for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. > > There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight > only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much t= o > go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler that > may fit. > > Best, Neil. > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft > > > > Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and > size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience i= s > appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from > aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for > turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst > > > > > --000000000000ce99b405ac1b3dbe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dave;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I talked with BNR = today and I'm not sure he really got what I was looking for as he start= ed by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should have then said pro= bably a "stage 1" would be good for me.
= =C2=A0 But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm= thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that yo= u do, if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might = as well go for the "stage 4".
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make r= oom for a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I= could source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even= know enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find th= e finish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low pric= e of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that p= aying the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with inte= rnational shipping.=C2=A0
So I guess I just need som= eone to give me a little shove to push me over the edge and call him back w= ith my visa#.
=C2=A0 If he had an "add to cart&= quot; button on his website I think we'd be past this point after a few= beers watching playoff hockey.

=C2=A0Todd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(The only t= hing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that there is less fans th= an my beer league games)



On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking.= =C2=A0 Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t= want the job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way= .=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will contact them, and see what eventua= tes as way down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to = start again.=C2=A0 Done that too many times before.

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

From: Rotary motors in= aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:= Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;=

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today = on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 week turnar= ound time on the turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So he suggested th= at for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just get one there and modify it= for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a no-brainer, because it = would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. Then I'm only paying = shipping one way.

=C2=A0= =C2=A0So for you that would make even more sense.=C2=A0
<= u>

Todd Bartrim<= u>

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally gre= at advice that I cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2= =80=9D and the phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as well= for I have personal experience with =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck =E2= =80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust= !=C2=A0 That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallo= ns of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to a = turbo , as the freight both ways to the US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happy = with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo= .=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be another $300 at least.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in airc= raft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tues= day, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 What did you use for a shut-off= valve for your oil?

=C2= =A0

Todd = Bartrim

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

<= div>

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonar= d wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:

Ke= lly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above.=

=C2=A0

Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as kee= ping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the conditions you a= re going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in your po= st, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in m= ind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp unles= s you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2= =A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car = - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.= =C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a = little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Loo= king=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 I= t's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted t= hat long because most of the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The t= urbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and d= ecided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MA= P at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.=

=C2=A0

My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is t= o install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now h= ave one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemor= rhaging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will= run out of oil before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can = continue to fly n/a as long as you need.

=C2=A0

= Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that ar= e realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want= to fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and p= aste various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on t= he internet but most of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet= .=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while stay= ing away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k = if possible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a= good choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock = T3 does not belong in an aircraft.

=C2=A0

Best,<= u>

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

=

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gm= ail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= u>

Group,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no running expe= rience yet but when I purchased my turbo I settled on a "Turbonetics&q= uot; TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as to not get into=C2=A0=

any overspeed problems....= ......FWIW

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dav= e,

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the upgraded= Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock Hitachi.=C2= =A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expectation?<= /p>

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, Aug= ust 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos= for 13b's in aircraft

= =C2=A0

James,

I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR = Supercars.=C2=A0 They also have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupe= rcars.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nic= e tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can fin= d in the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around = 350hp at sea level.

=C2= =A0

Attached is a turbo = excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various parameters in select= ing a turbo.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com &= lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Jame= s,

=C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 = Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi t= urbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the world trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 tu= rbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2= =A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 = and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There= was an offer of one in south Africa for freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bar= gain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much to go that I have n= ot factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0= Neil.

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size= ) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is appr= eciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from aircraft... or= so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage for turbos.= Thanks, James Whitehurst

<= /div>


=C2=A0

--000000000000ce99b405ac1b3dbe--