X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=FuTfBirF9AnEJdX4ERgqMg==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=PDnRYbtMHYX4o1iYEa4A:9 a=iTSjkhhxt7mjYI2f:21 a=4uhDOTBWc0REtcqn:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=nzUMc8je70UF1sgkPi0A:9 a=-KL3gPr95J9ShSri:21 a=IttUMqitxl48ytbn:21 a=k4g5K8R_5NhXLbLl:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: " 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pl1-f176.google.com ([209.85.214.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 605255 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 20:03:09 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.176; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pl1-f176.google.com with SMTP id z20so3523075plo.6 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=LBTF3077lpUaQhPom1VDdeisZOenCJHeWS1qAnF5UWc=; b=eCPc/Yuc3sPQI4kYmflFRzfy5wFn3BsKOHRuD/Zf3HUBrf3Ui0i1T7dzGi2HZORkat LcIlTnt0o7ysmGZq8v/+Tcddt0102yGkUjvJH+A7q4OBiJJjC3mJPsrqlLeDYoDqt0LH 5sQchGGmXYl/Dhl4skwqn/aq1b6bwB1wnok5Xrzl7Lj6Gt8Udk0E5mvjLivEdsVNnUCp MZ2GBApqS2TBtcwEyvcFNIDX83wY1mIkLtQ3kE7bAujRx+jy+ZnziWcvohXf0F/wkH8x uXkQQXfvJAJ9wJ4NMFcZcPy7WLpi9o3rxAQOyBJe6BFznXvX4JcRo58bfgffkXw6T3tx xytw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=LBTF3077lpUaQhPom1VDdeisZOenCJHeWS1qAnF5UWc=; b=Le6b9AnoLxqZDuX7fIZyA7FVew3ajtcPFQL3wvXZcU7QuJsdPr6Iv6kTWQ2LEbeFTs +abOW6uipEn4U1HCunRT3HTG6lJ6FaPsLU2Iz7sV8jO4MJVgEe7/oRoCp8riaKMIT0ES YtW9fR+EHGQWbvdsX4gQEc+Nahr2Bx0t+hcZno+sFRi5XYhBALTwXWTmzsVC1GNypXKo radrF+S45Smncl7I0bYgrsg5zuaUAVvtmUbDxpWmBL/4bLZHRrW3m37VGOdQm4d7O2pD m0hacOM8ae3K4/erny7QtfZArT050uFExH0Rvw5G0Wo08xHEGdrLqzoagNZaOqxk14WO Zf0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tCTdNcRwGMBrVONdqIC2j9Bw9t/gEKMoMJBaXXCL5xkONT5W7 5j+ueBjvEhQPNpGtcgLQdt+tvaKa X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx0/s80kfkdd7z0u4RMsbxI3UA6sBePAvRacpY7rl+iVxhLhwNxK5oWc2WmO/RQ+tSG8+15mw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d704:: with SMTP id w4mr685049ply.278.1596585772788; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from UserPC ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 207sm273161pfz.203.2020.08.04.17.02.51 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:02:52 -0700 (PDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:02:49 +1000 Message-ID: <000401d66abb$c315c220$49414660$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01D66B0F.94C44320" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIbccIqjdgIcZR35uU64Z8XCEQUj6iekt2A Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01D66B0F.94C44320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Todd, Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. = Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t = want the job. Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. = Makes the $100 cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way = down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start = again. Done that too many times before. Thanks, Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Neil; I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said = it was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe = later this fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he = could just get one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. = That's kinda a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship = mine down to him. Then I'm only paying shipping one way. So for you that would make even more sense.=20 Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave and all, Finally great advice that I cannot get = anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line = goes dead. The oil cut off is great as well for I have personal = experience with a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not = believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust! That took more = time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of it. =20 Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight = both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will = be $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will = be another $300 at least. =20 Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Hi Dave; What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? =20 Todd Bartrim =20 =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = > wrote: Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. =20 Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its = proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be = giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that = perhaps you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you = are not going to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target = and a plan to achieve it. =20 =20 The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b = it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short = bursts. I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo = to see what I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo = lasted for about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the = impeller was running over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 = hours. It probably only lasted that long because most of the time I was = not running full power. The turbo imploded on my first long cross = country. I was almost home and decided to let it loose a little. I was = running about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing = that. =20 My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a = shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my = installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the = exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you = can get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long = as you need. =20 Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are = realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to = fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste = various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the = internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. = Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying = away from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. = You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and = readily available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong = in an aircraft. =20 Best, Dave Leonard =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Group, I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I = settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as = to not get into=20 any overspeed problems..........FWIW =20 http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 =20 =20 Kelly troyer =20 On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave, Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the = upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock = Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 James, I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have = options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the = level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about = Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or = TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. =20 Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate = various parameters in selecting a turbo. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: James, 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. = Think they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the = world trying to get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not = exist if you talk to drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. = Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other = will need bearings. There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight = only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much = to go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler = that may fit. Best, Neil. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft =20 Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and = size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience = is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from = aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01D66B0F.94C44320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that as was exactly what I was = thinking.=C2=A0 Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or = don=E2=80=99t want the job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to the US and back can = be $300 each way.=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will contact them, = and see what eventuates as way down the path of fitting the stock turbo, = really do not want to start again.=C2=A0 Done that too many times = before.

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August = 5, 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 

Hi = Neil;

  I talked to BNR = today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 = week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So = he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just get one = there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a = no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. = Then I'm only paying shipping one way.

   So for you that would make even more = sense. 

Todd Bartrim

 

 

Dave and all,

          =             &= nbsp;       Finally great advice that I = cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the = phone line goes dead.  The oil cut off is great as well for I have = personal experience with  a turbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you = would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exhaust!  = That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 gallons of = it. 

  Will see what I can source here in OZ  as = to a turbo , as the freight both ways to the US  is = murderous.  Happy with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz = dollars.  Still a cheap turbo.  Freight I am guessing will be = another $300 at least.

 

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Dave;

  What = did you use for a shut-off valve for your = oil?

 <= /o:p>

Todd = Bartrim

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Kelly, you = are right.  I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post = above.

 <= /o:p>

Mark, its = not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its proper = operating environment for the conditions you are going to be = giving.  You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it = seem that perhaps you dont have a specific target in = mind.  Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp = unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve = it.  

 <= /o:p>

The stock = hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.  It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran = with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short = bursts.  I did what you are thinking about doing.  I ran the = stock turbo to see what I would get.  I was making a little over = 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.  = Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k = RPM.  It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.  It probably = only lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full = power.  The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.  I = was almost home and decided to let it loose a little.  I was = running about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude.  It lasted about = 30 min doing that.

 <= /o:p>

My advice, = if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-off valve on = the oil feed line to the turbo.  I now have one in my = installation.  When the turbo goes it will be = hemorrhaging oil into the exhaust.  Without a shut-off valve, = you will run out of oil before you can get very far.  With the = valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you = need.

 <= /o:p>

Play around = with that spreadsheet I sent you.  Make up numbers that are = realistic for how much boost at what altitude you = realistically want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those = parameters.  You can cut and paste various turbo maps onto the = spreadsheet.  They are available on the internet but most of the = relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet.  Try to keep the = turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the = 'surge' line.  Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.  You = will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and = readily available.  You will also see that the stock T3 does not = belong in an aircraft.

 <= /o:p>

Best,

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Group,<= /o:p>

  =  I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I = settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine = housing so as to not get into 

any = overspeed problems..........FWIW

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Kelly = troyer

 <= /o:p>

On Mon, Aug = 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave,

          =       Just how much extra Hp do you think you = got withy the upgraded Turbo?  I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP = from the stock Hitachi.  Am I off with the fairys having this = expectation?

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

James,<= /o:p>

I had my = stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.  They also have = options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the = level 4 upgrade.  Makes a nice tight fit.  I had a big = discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.  I = settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea = level.

 <= /o:p>

Attached is = a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various = parameters in selecting a turbo.

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Sun, Aug = 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

James,

  2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 = Todd  Bartrim and Dave leonnard.  Think they have the standard = RX7 Hitachi turbo.  Just been around the world trying to get an = affordable  turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk = to drag racers etc.,  Quotes between $4500 and $6500.  Bought = 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will = need bearings.

          =       There was an offer of one in south Africa = for freight only.  Would be a bargain.  Just hooking mine up = now, but as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.  = Finally found an intercooler that may fit.

Best,  Neil.

 

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

 <= /o:p>

Does anyone = out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size) for a = 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is = appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from = aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage = for turbos. Thanks, James = Whitehurst


 <= /o:p>

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